10 MHz Reference Oscillator

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10 MHz Reference Oscillator

Joel Black-2
I may be in need of providing a 10 MHz reference clock to my K3. I know I’d need to purchase the K3EXREF board for this. Without having to cobble together (I’m not a good “cobbler” of shoes or stuff) too much unless it comes in a kit, what are folks using that could be had for relatively low cost?

Although this would be nice to have, http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/projects/ministd/frqstd.htm <http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/projects/ministd/frqstd.htm>, something significantly less would be better. At the current exchange rate, this device is close to $500.

Thanks,
Joel - W4JBB
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Re: 10 MHz Reference Oscillator

GM4JJJ
For DIY see:

http://la3za.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/just-good-enough-10-mhz-reference.html

Ready Built:

There is also the excellent Leo Bodnar GPS unit
Tiny fits in palm of your hand, low power consumption and fast locking. In itself a great frequency source that goes up to 800 MHz.

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=107&products_id=234

On auction sites you may also see 10 MHz GPSDO by BG7TBL from China at reasonable prices, along with matching distribution amplifiers.



73

David Anderson GM4JJJ

> On 31 Oct 2015, at 12:40, Joel Black <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I may be in need of providing a 10 MHz reference clock to my K3. I know I’d need to purchase the K3EXREF board for this. Without having to cobble together (I’m not a good “cobbler” of shoes or stuff) too much unless it comes in a kit, what are folks using that could be had for relatively low cost?
>
> Although this would be nice to have, http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/projects/ministd/frqstd.htm <http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/projects/ministd/frqstd.htm>, something significantly less would be better. At the current exchange rate, this device is close to $500.
>
> Thanks,
> Joel - W4JBB
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: 10 MHz Reference Oscillator

GM4JJJ
I should also have linked to the USA importer of the Leo Bodnar unit

http://www.force12inc.com/products/gps-locked-precision-frequency-reference-low-jitter-gps-clock-450-hz-to-800-mhz-output.html

73

David Anderson GM4JJJ

> On 31 Oct 2015, at 13:38, David Anderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> For DIY see:
>
> http://la3za.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/just-good-enough-10-mhz-reference.html
>
> Ready Built:
>
> There is also the excellent Leo Bodnar GPS unit
> Tiny fits in palm of your hand, low power consumption and fast locking. In itself a great frequency source that goes up to 800 MHz.
>
> http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=107&products_id=234
>
> On auction sites you may also see 10 MHz GPSDO by BG7TBL from China at reasonable prices, along with matching distribution amplifiers.
>
>
>
> 73
>
> David Anderson GM4JJJ
>
>> On 31 Oct 2015, at 12:40, Joel Black <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I may be in need of providing a 10 MHz reference clock to my K3. I know I’d need to purchase the K3EXREF board for this. Without having to cobble together (I’m not a good “cobbler” of shoes or stuff) too much unless it comes in a kit, what are folks using that could be had for relatively low cost?
>>
>> Although this would be nice to have, http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/projects/ministd/frqstd.htm <http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/projects/ministd/frqstd.htm>, something significantly less would be better. At the current exchange rate, this device is close to $500.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Joel - W4JBB
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
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Re: 10 MHz Reference Oscillator

Edward R Cole
In reply to this post by Joel Black-2
Back in the 1950's all radios drifted a lot at cold start...that is
why many let their receivers run continuously.

OCXO = Oven Controlled Xtal Oscillator.  I utilizes an insulated
enclosure heated above the ambient temperature to provide a very
stable operating temperature for the xtal oscillator.  Thus they need
to be at stable operating temp to provide very stable "short-term"
10-MHz reference signal.  30-40 minutes from cold start is about
right.  I just run mine 24/7.  Originally I used a RS 1.5A wall cube
charging a large gell-cell battery for 12v power but after
discovering bad 120-Hz ripple on the voltage am just using a good 12v
PS made by Astron.  Short term frequency stability is +/-5 E-12 or in
non-scientific nomenclature +/- 0.000005 Hz.  The long-term stability
is +/-5 E-5 which is about +/- 5Hz so one must periodically adjust
(or recalibrate) the OCXO with an accurate frequency.  I find mine
drifts about 1-Hz over 6-month.

The K3EXREF keeps the K3 with TCXO-3 to about 2 to 3 Hz at 28-MHz
using a OCXO as reference.  Plenty good enough for just about anyone.

I also use a surplus "Russian" Morion OCXO bought for $45 from
e-bay.  Recently they are available for much less with double-oven
design or sine wave versions.  I bought a couple sine-wave OCXO for
$25 in the last year.

They do require a 5v regulator and multi-turn 100K pot plus a couple
capacitors and fixed resistors for the frequency control lead of the
OCXO (about $30 of parts).  I mount my OCXO on a small RS project pc
board.  Yes it requires some assembly with soldering iron (but no sm
stuff).  I have a Rubidium reference for calibrating my OCXO...It
also requires a long warm up.

So if you travel with your K3 a lot then probably a GPSDO is a better
choice though one also requires them to have a good lock on GPS which
can take a minute or so for some.

73, Ed - KL7uW
I was a beta-tester on the K3EXREF


----------------
From: brian <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 10 MHz Reference Oscillator
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

Ron,

The MV89A is pretty incredible-- especially for the price.

I think two statements in your posting contradict each other though.
It isn't basically "on frequency" from a cold start.   It drifts 10's of
Hz until the oven temp and oscillator stabilizes.
The second statement about taking 40 minutes is more accurate.

Upon receipt of mine, there was some calibration needed to have it
accurate < 1 Hz.

After calibration and warmups of 2 hours to days, the residual drift was
incredibly low <0.003 Hz/day!

For those who can live with it being powered continuously, it is an
excellent unit to discipline the K3.

73 DE Brian/K3KO




73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
     "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
     [hidden email]

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Re: 10 MHz Reference Oscillator

Elecraft mailing list
Hi,
I use a Trimble GPS referenced 10 MHz source for shop use and into a video distribution amplifier and cable it from the shop to the K3.

Works great. always on for the test equipment in the shop.
Mel, K6KBE

      From: Edward R Cole <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 10:01 AM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 10 MHz Reference Oscillator
   
Back in the 1950's all radios drifted a lot at cold start...that is
why many let their receivers run continuously.

OCXO = Oven Controlled Xtal Oscillator.  I utilizes an insulated
enclosure heated above the ambient temperature to provide a very
stable operating temperature for the xtal oscillator.  Thus they need
to be at stable operating temp to provide very stable "short-term"
10-MHz reference signal.  30-40 minutes from cold start is about
right.  I just run mine 24/7.  Originally I used a RS 1.5A wall cube
charging a large gell-cell battery for 12v power but after
discovering bad 120-Hz ripple on the voltage am just using a good 12v
PS made by Astron.  Short term frequency stability is +/-5 E-12 or in
non-scientific nomenclature +/- 0.000005 Hz.  The long-term stability
is +/-5 E-5 which is about +/- 5Hz so one must periodically adjust
(or recalibrate) the OCXO with an accurate frequency.  I find mine
drifts about 1-Hz over 6-month.

The K3EXREF keeps the K3 with TCXO-3 to about 2 to 3 Hz at 28-MHz
using a OCXO as reference.  Plenty good enough for just about anyone.

I also use a surplus "Russian" Morion OCXO bought for $45 from
e-bay.  Recently they are available for much less with double-oven
design or sine wave versions.  I bought a couple sine-wave OCXO for
$25 in the last year.

They do require a 5v regulator and multi-turn 100K pot plus a couple
capacitors and fixed resistors for the frequency control lead of the
OCXO (about $30 of parts).  I mount my OCXO on a small RS project pc
board.  Yes it requires some assembly with soldering iron (but no sm
stuff).  I have a Rubidium reference for calibrating my OCXO...It
also requires a long warm up.

So if you travel with your K3 a lot then probably a GPSDO is a better
choice though one also requires them to have a good lock on GPS which
can take a minute or so for some.

73, Ed - KL7uW
I was a beta-tester on the K3EXREF


----------------
From: brian <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 10 MHz Reference Oscillator
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

Ron,

The MV89A is pretty incredible-- especially for the price.

I think two statements in your posting contradict each other though.
It isn't basically "on frequency" from a cold start.  It drifts 10's of
Hz until the oven temp and oscillator stabilizes.
The second statement about taking 40 minutes is more accurate.

Upon receipt of mine, there was some calibration needed to have it
accurate < 1 Hz.

After calibration and warmups of 2 hours to days, the residual drift was
incredibly low <0.003 Hz/day!

For those who can live with it being powered continuously, it is an
excellent unit to discipline the K3.

73 DE Brian/K3KO




73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
    "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
    [hidden email]

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Re: 10 MHz Reference Oscillator

Bob W7AVK-2
In reply to this post by Joel Black-2
For evaluation I purchased last spring directly from China one of the
BG7TBL 10 mhz sine output GPS Defined Oscillators when the price was
$125.  These very nice units are now being sold from CA for a bit more
and comes with everything needed, Unit, GPS antenna, power supply.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10MHZ-Output-Sine-Wave-GPS-Disciplined-Clock-GPSDO-GPS-Antenna-Power-Supply-US-/261977676713?hash=item3cff161ba9:g:ZJQAAOSwrklVf3wV 


It uses the Russian Morion Double oven crystal oscillators controlled by
voltage feedback against the  GPS1 pulse per second signal using a very
long time constant control loop.  If you would like a block drawing
contact me directly.

I gave the unit to KE5FX, a member of the "Time Nuts" group, who has the
equipment to evaluate it.  His results are posted at
http://www.ke5fx.com/gpscomp.htm It was found due to the pulse width
method of creating the Morion oscillator control voltage this unit was
operating 2 to 3 times ten to the minus 11 cycles low.   I wouldn't get
too upset at this as that error would only be 3 hz off at 100 GHZ.

Found the unit works great as a master reference for not only the K3 but
lab gear like counters and signal generators.

73  Bob  W7AVK
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Re: 10 MHz Reference Oscillator

GM4JJJ
Yes, I bought one as well, along with the matching  8 channel distribution amplifier which is equally well made.

There is a review by VK2XAX Tim Tuck of a later model which may have fixed that tiny error in phase.

I also read an interesting article about the 5MHz leakage from the Morion Oscillator ( at -50dBc). [The Morion is really a 5MHz OS X with a frequency doubler to 10 MHz] and yes, I do know what a double oven is and we are not referring to that type of double.

I hope the following link works for Tim's review of the GPDSO

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9Oysj7clpT7YTBWSjlfNTI1aTQ/view

73

David Anderson GM4JJJ

> On 31 Oct 2015, at 18:40, Bob W7AVK <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> For evaluation I purchased last spring directly from China one of the BG7TBL 10 mhz sine output GPS Defined Oscillators when the price was $125.  These very nice units are now being sold from CA for a bit more and comes with everything needed, Unit, GPS antenna, power supply. http://www.ebay.com/itm/10MHZ-Output-Sine-Wave-GPS-Disciplined-Clock-GPSDO-GPS-Antenna-Power-Supply-US-/261977676713?hash=item3cff161ba9:g:ZJQAAOSwrklVf3wV 
>
> It uses the Russian Morion Double oven crystal oscillators controlled by voltage feedback against the  GPS1 pulse per second signal using a very long time constant control loop.  If you would like a block drawing contact me directly.
>
> I gave the unit to KE5FX, a member of the "Time Nuts" group, who has the equipment to evaluate it.  His results are posted at http://www.ke5fx.com/gpscomp.htm It was found due to the pulse width method of creating the Morion oscillator control voltage this unit was operating 2 to 3 times ten to the minus 11 cycles low.   I wouldn't get too upset at this as that error would only be 3 hz off at 100 GHZ.
>
> Found the unit works great as a master reference for not only the K3 but lab gear like counters and signal generators.
>
> 73  Bob  W7AVK
> k
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Re: 10 MHz Reference Oscillator

Elecraft mailing list
In reply to this post by Bob W7AVK-2
I agree, and when you put the GPS referenced osc against my HP8920 and the old HP 5346M on X-Y scope input, the circle hardly moves.
Mel, K6KBE

      From: Bob W7AVK <[hidden email]>
 To: 'Elecraft' <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 11:40 AM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 10 MHz Reference Oscillator
   
For evaluation I purchased last spring directly from China one of the
BG7TBL 10 mhz sine output GPS Defined Oscillators when the price was
$125.  These very nice units are now being sold from CA for a bit more
and comes with everything needed, Unit, GPS antenna, power supply.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10MHZ-Output-Sine-Wave-GPS-Disciplined-Clock-GPSDO-GPS-Antenna-Power-Supply-US-/261977676713?hash=item3cff161ba9:g:ZJQAAOSwrklVf3wV 


It uses the Russian Morion Double oven crystal oscillators controlled by
voltage feedback against the  GPS1 pulse per second signal using a very
long time constant control loop.  If you would like a block drawing
contact me directly.

I gave the unit to KE5FX, a member of the "Time Nuts" group, who has the
equipment to evaluate it.  His results are posted at
http://www.ke5fx.com/gpscomp.htm It was found due to the pulse width
method of creating the Morion oscillator control voltage this unit was
operating 2 to 3 times ten to the minus 11 cycles low.  I wouldn't get
too upset at this as that error would only be 3 hz off at 100 GHZ.

Found the unit works great as a master reference for not only the K3 but
lab gear like counters and signal generators.

73  Bob  W7AVK
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Re: 10 MHz Reference Oscillator

Robert Friess
Where do I find the distribution amplifier?

Bob

On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 12:19 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I agree, and when you put the GPS referenced osc against my HP8920 and the
> old HP 5346M on X-Y scope input, the circle hardly moves.
> Mel, K6KBE
>
>       From: Bob W7AVK <[hidden email]>
>  To: 'Elecraft' <[hidden email]>
>  Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 11:40 AM
>  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 10 MHz Reference Oscillator
>
> For evaluation I purchased last spring directly from China one of the
> BG7TBL 10 mhz sine output GPS Defined Oscillators when the price was
> $125.  These very nice units are now being sold from CA for a bit more
> and comes with everything needed, Unit, GPS antenna, power supply.
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/10MHZ-Output-Sine-Wave-GPS-Disciplined-Clock-GPSDO-GPS-Antenna-Power-Supply-US-/261977676713?hash=item3cff161ba9:g:ZJQAAOSwrklVf3wV
>
>
> It uses the Russian Morion Double oven crystal oscillators controlled by
> voltage feedback against the  GPS1 pulse per second signal using a very
> long time constant control loop.  If you would like a block drawing
> contact me directly.
>
> I gave the unit to KE5FX, a member of the "Time Nuts" group, who has the
> equipment to evaluate it.  His results are posted at
> http://www.ke5fx.com/gpscomp.htm It was found due to the pulse width
> method of creating the Morion oscillator control voltage this unit was
> operating 2 to 3 times ten to the minus 11 cycles low.  I wouldn't get
> too upset at this as that error would only be 3 hz off at 100 GHZ.
>
> Found the unit works great as a master reference for not only the K3 but
> lab gear like counters and signal generators.
>
> 73  Bob  W7AVK
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: 10 MHz Reference Oscillator

Elecraft mailing list
Hi Bob,
Old DYNAIR DA1510A one by four output.  Still see them listed for sale <$50.
Mel, K6KBE

      From: Robert Friess <[hidden email]>
 To: Mel Farrer <[hidden email]>
Cc: Bob W7AVK <[hidden email]>; Elecraft <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 1:08 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 10 MHz Reference Oscillator
   
Where do I find the distribution amplifier?
Bob


On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 12:19 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree, and when you put the GPS referenced osc against my HP8920 and the old HP 5346M on X-Y scope input, the circle hardly moves.
Mel, K6KBE

      From: Bob W7AVK <[hidden email]>
 To: 'Elecraft' <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 11:40 AM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 10 MHz Reference Oscillator

For evaluation I purchased last spring directly from China one of the
BG7TBL 10 mhz sine output GPS Defined Oscillators when the price was
$125.  These very nice units are now being sold from CA for a bit more
and comes with everything needed, Unit, GPS antenna, power supply.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10MHZ-Output-Sine-Wave-GPS-Disciplined-Clock-GPSDO-GPS-Antenna-Power-Supply-US-/261977676713?hash=item3cff161ba9:g:ZJQAAOSwrklVf3wV


It uses the Russian Morion Double oven crystal oscillators controlled by
voltage feedback against the  GPS1 pulse per second signal using a very
long time constant control loop.  If you would like a block drawing
contact me directly.

I gave the unit to KE5FX, a member of the "Time Nuts" group, who has the
equipment to evaluate it.  His results are posted at
http://www.ke5fx.com/gpscomp.htm It was found due to the pulse width
method of creating the Morion oscillator control voltage this unit was
operating 2 to 3 times ten to the minus 11 cycles low.  I wouldn't get
too upset at this as that error would only be 3 hz off at 100 GHZ.

Found the unit works great as a master reference for not only the K3 but
lab gear like counters and signal generators.

73  Bob  W7AVK
______________________________________________________________
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Re: 10 MHz Reference Oscillator

GM4JJJ
In reply to this post by Robert Friess
They are on eBay too, sometimes there are bargains the GPSDO and the Distribution amp as a bundle. Search for 10 MHz distribution amplifier. Also look for BG7TBL the designer.

This is the distribution amp I got in the bundle I bought:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OXCO-benchmark-frequency-standard-8-port-output-10MHz-Distribution-amplifier-/181744186662?hash=item2a50cc3526:g:gqYAAOSwNSxVUw~z

Note the distribution amp also includes another free running 10 MHz Morion Oven Osc as well. It takes over if the Reference input is removed.

73

David Anderson GM4JJJ

> On 31 Oct 2015, at 20:08, Robert Friess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Where do I find the distribution amplifier?
>
> Bob
>
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Re: 10 MHz Reference Oscillator

Jeff Schmidt
In reply to this post by Bob W7AVK-2
I see both a sine wave and a square wave version available on ebay. The
K3EXREF doc references both w/ regard to signal source, so I assume
either would work.

Initially, I'll only be connecting a K3, is one a better choice than the
other?


Jeff KC9WSJ

On 10/31/2015 01:40 PM, Bob W7AVK wrote:

> For evaluation I purchased last spring directly from China one of the
> BG7TBL 10 mhz sine output GPS Defined Oscillators when the price was
> $125.  These very nice units are now being sold from CA for a bit more
> and comes with everything needed, Unit, GPS antenna, power supply.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/10MHZ-Output-Sine-Wave-GPS-Disciplined-Clock-GPSDO-GPS-Antenna-Power-Supply-US-/261977676713?hash=item3cff161ba9:g:ZJQAAOSwrklVf3wV
>
>
> It uses the Russian Morion Double oven crystal oscillators controlled
> by voltage feedback against the  GPS1 pulse per second signal using a
> very long time constant control loop.  If you would like a block
> drawing contact me directly.
>
> I gave the unit to KE5FX, a member of the "Time Nuts" group, who has
> the equipment to evaluate it.  His results are posted at
> http://www.ke5fx.com/gpscomp.htm It was found due to the pulse width
> method of creating the Morion oscillator control voltage this unit was
> operating 2 to 3 times ten to the minus 11 cycles low.   I wouldn't
> get too upset at this as that error would only be 3 hz off at 100 GHZ.
>
> Found the unit works great as a master reference for not only the K3
> but lab gear like counters and signal generators.
>
> 73  Bob  W7AVK

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Re: 10 MHz Reference Oscillator

Kevin Cozens-2
In reply to this post by Bob W7AVK-2
On 15-10-31 02:40 PM, Bob W7AVK wrote:
> For evaluation I purchased last spring directly from China one of the BG7TBL
> 10 mhz sine output GPS Defined Oscillators when the price was $125.
[snip]
> Found the unit works great as a master reference for not only the K3 but lab
> gear like counters and signal generators.

What do you use as a distribution buffer/amp to feed the signal to other
devices or are you only feeding the output to one device at a time?

--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
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Re: 10 MHz Reference Oscillator

GM4JJJ
BG7TBL also makes a matching 8 output sinewave distribution amplifier. It also contains another Morion 10 MHz OCXO which switches in automatically if the 10 MHz input to the distribution amp is not there. You can usually get a good deal on the GPS reference and the distribution amp together on eBay. I was actually just looking for a distribution amplifier when I stumbled across both items.

73 from David GM4JJJ

> On 15 Jan 2016, at 00:23, Kevin Cozens <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 15-10-31 02:40 PM, Bob W7AVK wrote:
>> For evaluation I purchased last spring directly from China one of the BG7TBL
>> 10 mhz sine output GPS Defined Oscillators when the price was $125.
> [snip]
>> Found the unit works great as a master reference for not only the K3 but lab
>> gear like counters and signal generators.
>
> What do you use as a distribution buffer/amp to feed the signal to other devices or are you only feeding the output to one device at a time?
>
> --
> Cheers!
>
> Kevin.
>
> http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
> Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
>                                | powerful!"
> #include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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