43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

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43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

Jim Brown-10
43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some
strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they
require a serious tuner to get them to load.

I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band
antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that
is, no "baluns", transformers, loading coils, or additional matching
networks.  I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it
well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like
to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in
the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner.

Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC


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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

Phillip Lontz
Good question... I would like to know too.

A wise man once said nothing....


On Sep 2, 2013, at 5:10 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load.
>
> I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that is, no "baluns", transformers, loading coils, or additional matching networks.  I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner.
>
> Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

Barry K3NDM
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
I know this isn't an answer to the basic premise of the raised question,
but let me throw this out.

1. 43 ft. verticals that are ground mounted require a large, good ground
system.
2. Depending on the band you are operating, the assumption of a high
VSWR is correct.
3. High VSWRs on coax are a losing proposition.


I use an 18' elevated vertical with an elevated radial system and a
tuner at the base of the vertical. The reasons I do this are:

1. Elevated radial systems need not be as extensive as ground based
radial systems; I have 4 radials, two 9 footers and two 19 footers.
2. 18 ft. is as high as I could get and still have my radial system
close to where I wanted it; the tree was too low.
3. A tuner at the base of the vertical allows me to run coax all the way
with an VSWR less than 1.5:1 on all bands.

The question now is how does it play or compare. The answer is I don't
have an absolute answer, but from what I see using WSPR at 1.5 Watts, it
seems to play well. I only have only had the system up a few weeks and
don't yet have enough experience with it to be more definitive. My gut
tells me that this is a better overall system than expensive, commercial
verticals. Almost everything is available from Home Depot except the
tuner and a few insulators. I hope this has triggered some curiosity.

73,
Barry
K3NDM




On 9/2/2013 7:10 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have
> some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so
> they require a serious tuner to get them to load.
>
> I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a
> multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for
> matching -- that is, no "baluns", transformers, loading coils, or
> additional matching networks.  I'd like to know the bands on which you
> are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or
> the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base
> of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between
> antenna and tuner.
>
> Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

Don Wilhelm-4
In reply to this post by Phillip Lontz
One can feed the 43 foot vertical with ladder line, and do the tuning in
the shack (yes, you can feed a vertical with balanced line), but if
feeding with coax, the best place for the matching network is at the
base of the antenna.  Coax is good for an swr of 2.0 or less (depending
on the frequency).  If the SWR is greater than that, some kind of
matching device at the base of the antenna is in order.
Ladder line feed OTOH is quite OK with an SWR of 20:1 if it is properly
routed - away from conducting surfaces by at least 3 times its spacing
and similarly away from the earth.

Again, yes, balanced feedline is an alternative for vertical antennas -
the antenna may be *unbalanced*, but the feedline does not care, You
still need balanced current and return current for the antenna to
functon correctly.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/2/2013 7:12 PM, Philip Townsend Lontz wrote:
> Good question... I would like to know too.
>
> A wise man once said nothing....
>
>
> On Sep 2, 2013, at 5:10 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load.
>>

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Balanced Circuits and Loss Due to Mismatch In Transmission Lines

Jim Brown-10
On 9/2/2013 4:32 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> One can feed the 43 foot vertical with ladder line, and do the tuning
> in the shack (yes, you can feed a vertical with balanced line),

I strongly object to the word "balanced" with respect to transmission
line. A better description is 2-wire or parallel wire line. The balance
of a circuit is determined by the impedances with respect to the
reference plane (usually the earth).

> but if feeding with coax, the best place for the matching network is
> at the base of the antenna.  Coax is good for an swr of 2.0 or less
> (depending on the frequency).  If the SWR is greater than that, some
> kind of matching device at the base of the antenna is in order.

That depends entirely on the length of the coax, how lossy the coax is
at the frequency(ies) of interest, and the power level.
> Ladder line feed OTOH is quite OK with an SWR of 20:1 if it is
> properly routed - away from conducting surfaces by at least 3 times
> its spacing and similarly away from the earth.
>
> Again, yes, balanced feedline is an alternative for vertical antennas
> - the antenna may be *unbalanced*, but the feedline does not care, You
> still need balanced current and return current for the antenna to
> functon correctly.

Calling a feedline "balanced" does not make the currents equal.  If the
system is unbalanced, the currents will be UNequal, and the difference
will be a common mode current. There are several ways to make the
currents equal, or more nearly equal -- we can use an ordinary 2-winding
transformer at each end, or an impedance-transforming balun, or even an
ordinary common mode choke.

I don't disagree that higher impedance 2-wire line can be a reasonable
way to connect a badly mismatched antenna to an antenna tuner.  But if
like many hams, the vertical is close enough to the shack that it can be
fed with 50-75 ft of coax, I'd seriously consider running a good quality
RG213 or hard line to a tuner in the shack. Yes, line loss increases
with high SWR, but one of the most misunderstood things about
transmission lines is how SMALL that increase is for short runs of big
coax. This is clearly shown by a family of curves that has been
published in every edition of the ARRL Handbook since I've been a ham.
It's Fig 20.4 in the 2010 Handbook.  Plugging in loss data for LMR400
(0.3dB for 75 ft at 10 MHz), the loss would be only 1dB with 10:1, and
2.3 dB with 20:1 SWR. For 1/2-in hard line, divide those loss numbers by
2.  Think that coax is expensive?  Try pricing a decent weatherproof
enclosure and other costs associated with remoting the tuner.

Where you get in trouble with loss in coax is when you use long runs of
small stuff -- because you're only running 5 watts. :)  Our Field Day
group holds the all time record for 1A battery, and we run RG213 to all
of our antennas.

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

George Osier
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
Hi Jim !!

I have a ZeroFive 40 meter monoband vertical with 60-12 ft radials on a
radial plate and use only the tuner on my K1. I can easily tune 40 , 20 and
15 but 30 I can get down to 1.6 to 1 (still acceptable) Feedline is RG-8X
that is 75 ft long. Used this setup in many DX contests with great success
along with many stateside contests.

73

George Osier , N2JNZ




-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Brown
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 7:10 PM
To: Reflector Elecraft
Subject: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some
strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they
require a serious tuner to get them to load.

I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band
antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that
is, no "baluns", transformers, loading coils, or additional matching
networks.  I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it
well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like
to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in
the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner.

Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC


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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

Barry K3NDM
George,
     Let me suggest that move your tuner to the base of the vertical. It
shouldn't make a big difference in tuning, but will cut your losses due
to SWR, particularly on 15.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

On 9/2/2013 8:49 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Hi Jim !!
>
> I have a ZeroFive 40 meter monoband vertical with 60-12 ft radials on
> a radial plate and use only the tuner on my K1. I can easily tune 40 ,
> 20 and 15 but 30 I can get down to 1.6 to 1 (still acceptable)
> Feedline is RG-8X that is 75 ft long. Used this setup in many DX
> contests with great success along with many stateside contests.
>
> 73
>
> George Osier , N2JNZ
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Jim Brown
> Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 7:10 PM
> To: Reflector Elecraft
> Subject: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
>
> 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some
> strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they
> require a serious tuner to get them to load.
>
> I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band
> antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that
> is, no "baluns", transformers, loading coils, or additional matching
> networks.  I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it
> well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like
> to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in
> the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner.
>
> Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

george fritkin
Don&#x27;t worry about remoteing the tuner, but ditch the RG8X and use RG8 with the least loss you can find.

George,W6GF
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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

Matt Moller
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
Definitely a loaded question. No pun intended. I don't have any
experience with 43 ft verticals myself but have heard a lot about them
and have been thinking about building one. I too would like to learn more.

Matt Moller
KG6KSL
K3 #3496

On 9/2/2013 4:10 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have
> some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so
> they require a serious tuner to get them to load.
>
> I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a
> multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for
> matching -- that is, no "baluns", transformers, loading coils, or
> additional matching networks.  I'd like to know the bands on which you
> are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or
> the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base
> of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between
> antenna and tuner.
>
> Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

Richard E Neese
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
most people I have heard running a 23 or 32 ot 43 foot vertical all use
a 4:1 and a 1:1 inline...

I hvae also been reading articals where a 5.1 rf coil is used.

--
R.Neese
KB3VGW

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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

Phil Salas
Dave WX7G wrote an article that may be of interest:

www.eham.net/articles/21272

I also have some info in the “Presentations” section of my website at www.ad5x.com.

As Jim says, if you use good quality coax over reasonable distances (I use 1/2” heliax over a 60-ft run), SWR-related losses are reasonable on 60-10 meters.  Above 20 meters the radiation angle increases.  However, since the antenna is electrically longer the radiation resistance increases which makes ground losses less significant.  Lots of trade-offs to consider.  Matching at the antenna base is important on 160- and 80-meters as the SWR is VERY high on those bands.  Also, most autotuners cannot match the 43-foot vertical at the base on 160-meters so additional external inductance is needed on this band (see the Autotuner Extender in the “Articles” section of my website.

I prefer the convenience of the autotuner in the shack, especially if you use an amplifier.  A remote tuner can’t easily take your amp off-line during tuning or if a high SWR suddenly occurs.  So I use a fixed base match for 160/80 meters, and the standard 4:1 unun on 60-10 meters (all switchable from the shack).  My KAT500 in the shack handles all the bandwidth extensions I need on all bands.

Phil – AD5X
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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

John Oppenheimer
On 09/03/2013 06:29 AM, Phil & Debbie Salas wrote:
> I also have some info in the “Presentations” section of my website at www.ad5x.com.

Phil's "The 43-Foot Vertical" presentation is very well written and
contains a wealth of good information.

Phil references a 10 Ohm ground. Using the information in:
http://www.kn5l.net/GroundRadialStudy/
which summarizes three published ground radial analysis reports. Using
the combined data from the three reports:

A 160 meter radial system requires 24 80 foot radials for a 9 ohm ground.

A 40 meter, and higher frequency, radial system requires 60 56 foot
radials for an 8 Ohm ground.

Both assuming an average ground.

John KN5L
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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by Matt Moller
On 9/2/2013 11:18 PM, Matt Moller wrote:
> I don't have any experience with 43 ft verticals myself but have heard
> a lot about them and have been thinking about building one. I too
> would like to learn more.

The reason for my post asking for experience with this antenna and the
Elecraft tuner is that I'm putting together a presentation on 43-ft
verticals for Pacificon next month. So far, I've done a lot of modeling
to understand how a 43-ft vertical behaves on all ham bands, both when
ground-mounted and on the roof of a typical home (with two radials for
each band 40-10M).

A few years ago, AD5X did some excellent work on matching a 43-ft
vertical, with engineering that can best be described as heroic, and
shared it in an fine Power Point that he's done for ham clubs, and that
is on the internet. He's given me permission to include parts of it in
my Pacificon talk. That talk is scheduled for Saturday morning.

The day before, as part of the Antenna Forum, I'm showing a rather
extensive study with the title, "If I Could Put My Multi-Band HF
Vertical On My Roof, Should I?" Except for the 43-ft vertical, nearly
all commercial multi-band verticals are resonant on the bands they
cover, and are either monopoles with radials (a classic ground plane),
or vertical dipoles without radials.  Various designs use anything from
traps to a combination of traps, stubs, and matching sections to
resonate the antenna and present a  50 ohm load. .

Both Power Points will be on my website after Pacificon.

As to radials -- some of the best work I've seen is by Rudy Severns,
N6LF, who has done both extensive modeling and significant experimental
work to confirm the models. His work is quite thoughtful, and presented
in a manner that is quite readable (but not light reading). As to
assigning resistance values to a given number and length of radials --
I've seen several published studies, some in the ARRL Handbook and
Antenna Book, that come up with quite conflicting numbers. I suspect
that the primary cause of the conflicting results is the nature of the
soil underneath the radial system.  At Pacificon last year I did a talk
about getting on 160M from a residential lot, which is mostly about
antennas, radial systems, and counterpoises. In it, I collected much of
the better work I've seen about radial systems.  The Power Point is on
my website. http://k9yc.com/publish.htm

Based on my modeling, and upon an excellent set of measurements by N0AX
and K7LXC of a dozen commercial verticals, if I had limited space and
could not rig horizontal dipoles for the bands I wanted to work, I would
use one of those commercial multi-band antennas configured as a vertical
dipole, and I would put it on my roof.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

Mike Furrey
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
Hi Jim,

I use exactly that here in Tampa. My antenna is a stealth 43' of green 18
gauge wire up a tree and 43' of the same horizontal hidden in the bushes. I
am in an apartment. The feed point is about 10' above ground. I feed it with
open wire line from a 4:1 balun on the back of my K3 with the internal
tuner. I am guessing the feed line is about 25'. It matches on 80-6 ...
sometimes ... excessive rain causes a "HIGH CURRENT" on the radio and I just
back down the power until it goes off.

I did tinker with different lengths of coax between the balun and the radio
... 10 feet of RG58 and the best SWR on 20 was 2:1 and 6 meters would have
nothing to do with it. I have not experimented with the length of the open
wire line ... the set up seems to work fine as I currently have it.

43' is a popular height because it is 5/8 on 20 and can provide "3db" gain.
For me the antenna works very well on 40, 30, 20 and 17. It is very poor on
80 and the angle of radiation is a bit high on  15-10. I have worked locals
on 6 (use a 6 m delta loop in attic the rest of the time). On 160 the tuner
would have nothing to do with it. BUT on 160 during the Stew Perry I did add
a base loading coil and hid 1/4 radial in the bushes and worked up and down
the East coast plus VEs and Carribian.

My current goal is DXCC on RTTY and only confirmed on LOTW. With this set-up
and I am up to 65 countries with only 100 watts.

Hope this helps.

73, Mike WA5POK/4 Tampa
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 7:10 PM
To: "Reflector Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

> 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some
> strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require
> a serious tuner to get them to load.
>
> I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band
> antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that
> is, no "baluns", transformers, loading coils, or additional matching
> networks.  I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it
> well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like to
> know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in the
> shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner.
>
> Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html 

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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

Jim Brown-10
Thanks Mike.  Your observations about radiation angle and performance
are in good agreement with my modeling. Yes, the secret sauce is that 43
ft is 5/8 on 20M.

73, Jim K9YC

On 9/3/2013 11:17 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Hi Jim,
>
> I use exactly that here in Tampa. My antenna is a stealth 43' of green
> 18 gauge wire up a tree and 43' of the same horizontal hidden in the
> bushes. I am in an apartment. The feed point is about 10' above
> ground. I feed it with open wire line from a 4:1 balun on the back of
> my K3 with the internal tuner. I am guessing the feed line is about
> 25'. It matches on 80-6 ... sometimes ... excessive rain causes a
> "HIGH CURRENT" on the radio and I just back down the power until it
> goes off.
>
> I did tinker with different lengths of coax between the balun and the
> radio ... 10 feet of RG58 and the best SWR on 20 was 2:1 and 6 meters
> would have nothing to do with it. I have not experimented with the
> length of the open wire line ... the set up seems to work fine as I
> currently have it.
>
> 43' is a popular height because it is 5/8 on 20 and can provide "3db"
> gain. For me the antenna works very well on 40, 30, 20 and 17. It is
> very poor on 80 and the angle of radiation is a bit high on  15-10. I
> have worked locals on 6 (use a 6 m delta loop in attic the rest of the
> time). On 160 the tuner would have nothing to do with it. BUT on 160
> during the Stew Perry I did add a base loading coil and hid 1/4 radial
> in the bushes and worked up and down the East coast plus VEs and
> Carribian.
>
> My current goal is DXCC on RTTY and only confirmed on LOTW. With this
> set-up and I am up to 65 countries with only 100 watts.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> 73, Mike WA5POK/4 Tampa

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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

Mike Furrey
In reply to this post by Mike Furrey
I have modeled this too on my old K6sti software ... need to get a windows
replacement. Make that a horizontal 20 DEZ (86') and not only is that
antenna lots of fun on 20 but it is lots of fun on 10 with a very nice
cloverleaf pattern (can't remember the gain).

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 5:28 PM
To: "'Reflector Elecraft'" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

> An interesting point I noticed modeling a 43 foot vertical was that, while
> on 10 meters the main lobe is up around 50 degrees, the "gain" at low
> angles
> is similar to a 1/4 wave "ground plane" antenna cut for 10 meters. That's
> because the longer antenna has significant gain over a 1/4 wave antenna so
> the amount of radiation down at the lower angles is about the same as a
> 1/4
> wave.
>
> That's for a ground mounted 1/4 wave on 10 meters. Ideally you want to
> raise
> the 10 meter vertical at least 1/2 wavelength - roughly 16 feet - then you
> get much better low angle radiation from the 1/4 wave because the ground
> absorbs much less of the lowest angle radiation. Installed that way, the
> 1/4
> wave shines over the 43 footer. Also, of course, there is less
> interference
> with the signal by foliage, buildings, etc.
>
> That's why so-called "vertical ground plane" antennas are so popular on
> the
> higher HF bands.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by Mike Furrey
YES!  You've hit the nail beautifully on the head, Ron. I just finished
preparing slides comparing a 43 ft ground-mounted vertical with a good
radial system on 20M, 15M, and 10M with a classic ground plane at 30 ft
and vertical dipole with a base at 30 ft for those bands.Looking at
performance below about 15 degrees elevation, the three antennas are
roughly equal at the low angles on 20M, but both the ground planes and
the vertical dipole blow the 43 ft vertical away on 15M and 10M (the
difference ranges between 6-8 dB, depending on ground conductivity).

The practical problem with sticking a ground plane on your roof is that
it needs at least two radials per band, but there are several multiband
antennas for those bands configured as vertical dipoles that work well
without radials. That's the basis of my earlier statement that a
roof-mounted well-designed multi-band vertical dipole is a far better
antenna above 20M than the 43 ft vertical.

73, Jim K9YC

On 9/3/2013 2:28 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> An interesting point I noticed modeling a 43 foot vertical was that, while
> on 10 meters the main lobe is up around 50 degrees, the "gain" at low angles
> is similar to a 1/4 wave "ground plane" antenna cut for 10 meters. That's
> because the longer antenna has significant gain over a 1/4 wave antenna so
> the amount of radiation down at the lower angles is about the same as a 1/4
> wave.
>
> That's for a ground mounted 1/4 wave on 10 meters. Ideally you want to raise
> the 10 meter vertical at least 1/2 wavelength - roughly 16 feet - then you
> get much better low angle radiation from the 1/4 wave because the ground
> absorbs much less of the lowest angle radiation. Installed that way, the 1/4
> wave shines over the 43 footer. Also, of course, there is less interference
> with the signal by foliage, buildings, etc.

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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

Lewis Phelps
This has been an excellent discussion on the 43 foot vertical. I have one installed in my back yard (DX Engineering). Very happy with it overall. It's been an excellent performer on 20 meters, and good on other bands; I'm a casual DX-er, but have worked 5 continents SSB with the 12 watt output of my barefoot K3.

Phil Salas had an excellent article in QST a year or so ago describing how to install switchable loading coils at the foot of the antenna, to mitigate low-band problems.

I match my 43 footer with a home-brew tuner -- a fully switch-configurable L-tuner that has a 27 µH variable inductor, 600 pFd of air variable capacitance, and two additional 600 pFd fixed caps that can be switched in parallel with the variables to provide up to 1800 pFd capacitance.  With this tuner, I can get a match across the full spectrum of all bands except 160 meters, where I can get below 2:1 only in the top 200 khz (without Phil's loading coils).  I recognize, of course, that the line losses are severe on the low bands, even with a run of only 60 feet of 9913 Belden coax. (A more detailed description of this tuner project is available at http://n6lew.us, if anyone's interested.)

For the high bands, I already have both a home brew 6 meter j-pole and a three-element quad. I'm currently working on construction of a 17-15-12-10 meter hexbeam, to overcome the high radiation angle of the vertical on the higher bands.  (Although most published hexbeam designs also in include 20 meters, I'm omitting that band from my project to reduce antenna size for visibility reasons, and because the vertical performs quite well on 20, as noted.

Overall, I'd say that the 43 foot vertical pairs up well with the K3, although I can't speak to the ability of the Elecraft auto-tuner to match the load on all bands. The simple L-tuner does so quite nicely.

Lew Phelps N6LEW
Pasadena, CA DM04wd
Elecraft K3-10
Yaesu FT-7800
[hidden email]
www.n6lew.us



On Sep 3, 2013, at 5:23 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> YES!  You've hit the nail beautifully on the head, Ron. I just finished preparing slides comparing a 43 ft ground-mounted vertical with a good radial system on 20M, 15M, and 10M with a classic ground plane at 30 ft and vertical dipole with a base at 30 ft for those bands.Looking at performance below about 15 degrees elevation, the three antennas are roughly equal at the low angles on 20M, but both the ground planes and the vertical dipole blow the 43 ft vertical away on 15M and 10M (the difference ranges between 6-8 dB, depending on ground conductivity).
>
> The practical problem with sticking a ground plane on your roof is that it needs at least two radials per band, but there are several multiband antennas for those bands configured as vertical dipoles that work well without radials. That's the basis of my earlier statement that a roof-mounted well-designed multi-band vertical dipole is a far better antenna above 20M than the 43 ft vertical.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> On 9/3/2013 2:28 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>> An interesting point I noticed modeling a 43 foot vertical was that, while
>> on 10 meters the main lobe is up around 50 degrees, the "gain" at low angles
>> is similar to a 1/4 wave "ground plane" antenna cut for 10 meters. That's
>> because the longer antenna has significant gain over a 1/4 wave antenna so
>> the amount of radiation down at the lower angles is about the same as a 1/4
>> wave.
>>
>> That's for a ground mounted 1/4 wave on 10 meters. Ideally you want to raise
>> the 10 meter vertical at least 1/2 wavelength - roughly 16 feet - then you
>> get much better low angle radiation from the 1/4 wave because the ground
>> absorbs much less of the lowest angle radiation. Installed that way, the 1/4
>> wave shines over the 43 footer. Also, of course, there is less interference
>> with the signal by foliage, buildings, etc.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

k6dgw
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
On 9/3/2013 5:23 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> The practical problem with sticking a ground plane on your roof is that
> it needs at least two radials per band, but there are several multiband
> antennas for those bands configured as vertical dipoles that work well
> without radials. That's the basis of my earlier statement that a
> roof-mounted well-designed multi-band vertical dipole is a far better
> antenna above 20M than the 43 ft vertical.

I bought a GAP Titan, mainly for WARC bands, my low-band ladder-line fed
sloping vee [135' on a side] gets really complicated above 40m.  I've
observed:

The GAP is about 1-2 S-units noisier.  Not surprising, it's a vertical.

It works on the WARC bands, satisfying my need, I've never used it on
the "contest" bands.

I think it's a center-fed half-wave vertical dipole.  It does have a
square wire loop thingy near the bottom that seems to deal with 40m,
pretty big.

No radials, but with the big square loop, it might as well have them.

I'm fairly convinced the shield of the coax plays a part on at least a
couple of bands, maybe all.  They warn you to route the coax out a hole
in the side of the support mast, not out the bottom.

I installed it on a 3" riser pipe that goes straight up inside the wall
from a 2' square utility box in the wall under my radio desk.  It has a
standard weatherhead on the top and carries the coax to the tower on a
steel messenger.  This was a misteak.  With the KPA500 at 500W, on 40m,
I get a lot of RF from the GAP screwing up things like the WinKey, the
laptop, and various other digital gadgets.  Fortunately I don't use it
on 40m.  It's directly over my head, I probably could have considered
that but of course didn't.  On 160, my sloping Vee also keys several of
the irrigation control valves ... they're not exactly up to QRQ and the
pipes bang really bad.

I've modeled the 43' vertical, both on the ground and in the air.  I've
tried one, on the ground with a not-too-shabby radial system.  It
appears to me that it is:

A vertical

43' seems to garner some friendlier feed impedances on some bands than
some other lengths, and it's physically manageable in restricted spaces,
HOA or otherwise

It's a vertical

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013
- www.cqp.org

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Re: 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners

Jim Brown-10
On 9/3/2013 7:30 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> With the KPA500 at 500W, on 40m, I get a lot of RF from the GAP
> screwing up things like the WinKey, the laptop, and various other
> digital gadgets.

The first thing I would do is put a serious ferrite choke on the coax at
the antenna.  If that doesn't fix it, I'd say it's radiation from the
antenna itself.

73, Jim
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