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Annoying contests

Ken G Kopp
I suspect one of the principal reasons the K3 ... and the K2 ... are
where they are in the performance pecking order is because of the
DX'er and contester market.

73!
Ken - K0PP
[hidden email]
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Re: Annoying contests

David Gilbert

The K3 is certainly where it is in the *sales* pecking order because of
DXers and contesters.  Not much need to pay for the extra performance a
K3 offers if all you're going to do is rag chew and check into nets.

Dave   AB7E



On 2/19/2012 2:24 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote:
> I suspect one of the principal reasons the K3 ... and the K2 ... are
> where they are in the performance pecking order is because of the
> DX'er and contester market.
>
> 73!
> Ken - K0PP
> [hidden email]
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Re: Annoying contests

Rick Stealey



>   Not much need to pay for the extra performance a
> K3 offers if all you're going to do is rag chew and check into nets.
>

This got me thinking - with all the automation we have these days in our stations,
automatic logging, dupe checking, software generated cw, it seems to be wasted
on the contesters.  What about the poor net operators?  Can't someone
invent a way for the rig to automatically give the temperature?  I mean, heck,
Wayne already has the temperature sensor built in.  It monitors the front panel
temperature on the K3.  Seems like Lyle could find a way to just interface it in with
the cw keyer and it could automatically send your temperature when you
(automatically) log in to the net..........

Rick  K2XT
     
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Re: Annoying contests

Guy, K2AV
In reply to this post by Ken G Kopp
It's the NASCAR factor.

The stark RX improvement of first the K2 and then the K3 over all the
competition, and the difference that made in contests, and such things as
K3 being fully half the chosen rigs in the last WRTC, really shoved
Elecraft out there.  TenTec has been forced to make changes and
improvements to their Orion series to catch up that they easily could have
made 5 years ago, but now are playing catch-up,  just like the Japanese
manufacturers.

The only comparable technical advancement in all the years I have been
drooling over ham rigs, was the 32S/75S Collins series of rigs all the way
back in the late 50's.  Some Collins buffs would put the advancement
starting with the 75A3/4 rather than the S line.

TenTec had the early opportunities but failed in execution, without the
vision of an Elecraft.  TenTec particularly lacked the responsiveness and
deep careful analysis and incorporation of customer feedback that so
characterizes Elecraft.   TenTec certainly had the early support and
cooperation of ham technical heavyweights in the beginning, some famously
lost to Elecraft after consistently being summarily ignored on clear
issues.  TenTec's failures AND accomplishments in RX were clearly visible
to and could have been cherry-picked by the Japanese makers, who chose to
ignore them as well.

I AM left to wonder what an Art Collins would have done with another
company leaping into a new performance dimension.  I doubt the year would
pass without an answer.  Nor would JA1MP, for that matter.

I would say that the Elecraft is down significantly in fit and finish from
the venerable S line. The S line is still the pleasure to look at and
simply turn knobs.  But the S line is the historical high for fit and
finish for all ham rigs.  But Elecraft more than counters for that by being
commonly affordable.  The S line plus the 650 watt output 30L1 in 1958-1960
would set you back just about $2000, about the same as a fullsize Ford
Fairlane of the time.

Comparably, a fairly maxed out K3 plus a KPA500 will set you back $7000.
 The difference is that $2000 in 1958 is worth at least $15,685 in 2012.
And you can't touch a Ford Fusion for 15k.  One is tempted to set the
time-adjusted price differential at more than 3 to 1.   Furthermore the
S-Line does not have QSK, does not have dual diversity receivers, or a
keyer, or the raft of K3 features, and takes up six or seven times the desk
space of the K3 KPA combo.  Nevertheless, the S line is still the all time
leader in raw cumulative drool time and drool volume and may never be
surpassed.   Joe DiMaggio kind of record.

But it was the RX performance of a K3 that got around like lightning, about
contesters in crowded band with huge signals on both sides, hearing with
their K3's down into a hiss on a band, absent a layer of
beeble-bobble-click clutter and IMD garbage that everybody THOUGHT was the
band ambient noise.  For myself, it was realizing that on 40 meters, there
was a whole new previously unheard layer of 50 and 100 watt low backyard
dipole RUSSIANS down in the hiss, and the last layer of signals was NO
LONGER the DL/OK QRP clubs, who now were almost always copied on first call
except those with liquid-nitrogen-cooled noodle antennas.

Contesters simply DO NOT MISS changes of that magnitude, and propagation of
information about that between contesters was light-speed.

Yeah, dang all them contests, and complain all the way to the bank, and all
the way to the top ten in the contest listings.

73, Guy

On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Ken G Kopp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I suspect one of the principal reasons the K3 ... and the K2 ... are
> where they are in the performance pecking order is because of the
> DX'er and contester market.
>
> 73!
> Ken - K0PP
> [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
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Re: Annoying contests

Doug Person-3
Thanks Guy.  That was a very interesting post.
Doug -- K0DXV

On 2/19/2012 6:12 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> It's the NASCAR factor.
>
> The stark RX improvement of first the K2 and then the K3 over all the
> competition, and the difference that made in contests, and such things as
> K3 being fully half the chosen rigs in the last WRTC, really shoved
> Elecraft out there.  TenTec has been forced to make changes and
> improvements to their Orion series to catch up that they easily could have
> made 5 years ago, but now are playing catch-up,  just like the Japanese
> manufacturers.
>
> The only comparable technical advancement in all the years I have been
> drooling over ham rigs, was the 32S/75S Collins series of rigs all the way
> back in the late 50's.  Some Collins buffs would put the advancement
> starting with the 75A3/4 rather than the S line.
>
> TenTec had the early opportunities but failed in execution, without the
> vision of an Elecraft.  TenTec particularly lacked the responsiveness and
> deep careful analysis and incorporation of customer feedback that so
> characterizes Elecraft.   TenTec certainly had the early support and
> cooperation of ham technical heavyweights in the beginning, some famously
> lost to Elecraft after consistently being summarily ignored on clear
> issues.  TenTec's failures AND accomplishments in RX were clearly visible
> to and could have been cherry-picked by the Japanese makers, who chose to
> ignore them as well.
>
> I AM left to wonder what an Art Collins would have done with another
> company leaping into a new performance dimension.  I doubt the year would
> pass without an answer.  Nor would JA1MP, for that matter.
>
> I would say that the Elecraft is down significantly in fit and finish from
> the venerable S line. The S line is still the pleasure to look at and
> simply turn knobs.  But the S line is the historical high for fit and
> finish for all ham rigs.  But Elecraft more than counters for that by being
> commonly affordable.  The S line plus the 650 watt output 30L1 in 1958-1960
> would set you back just about $2000, about the same as a fullsize Ford
> Fairlane of the time.
>
> Comparably, a fairly maxed out K3 plus a KPA500 will set you back $7000.
>   The difference is that $2000 in 1958 is worth at least $15,685 in 2012.
> And you can't touch a Ford Fusion for 15k.  One is tempted to set the
> time-adjusted price differential at more than 3 to 1.   Furthermore the
> S-Line does not have QSK, does not have dual diversity receivers, or a
> keyer, or the raft of K3 features, and takes up six or seven times the desk
> space of the K3 KPA combo.  Nevertheless, the S line is still the all time
> leader in raw cumulative drool time and drool volume and may never be
> surpassed.   Joe DiMaggio kind of record.
>
> But it was the RX performance of a K3 that got around like lightning, about
> contesters in crowded band with huge signals on both sides, hearing with
> their K3's down into a hiss on a band, absent a layer of
> beeble-bobble-click clutter and IMD garbage that everybody THOUGHT was the
> band ambient noise.  For myself, it was realizing that on 40 meters, there
> was a whole new previously unheard layer of 50 and 100 watt low backyard
> dipole RUSSIANS down in the hiss, and the last layer of signals was NO
> LONGER the DL/OK QRP clubs, who now were almost always copied on first call
> except those with liquid-nitrogen-cooled noodle antennas.
>
> Contesters simply DO NOT MISS changes of that magnitude, and propagation of
> information about that between contesters was light-speed.
>
> Yeah, dang all them contests, and complain all the way to the bank, and all
> the way to the top ten in the contest listings.
>
> 73, Guy
>
> On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Ken G Kopp<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> I suspect one of the principal reasons the K3 ... and the K2 ... are
>> where they are in the performance pecking order is because of the
>> DX'er and contester market.
>>
>> 73!
>> Ken - K0PP
>> [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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Re: Annoying contests

Nate Bargmann
In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV
* On 2012 19 Feb 19:14 -0600, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> It's the NASCAR factor.

With all due respect, I'm a fan of NASCAR, but Elecraft is giving us the
performance of Formula 1 at a NASCAR price tag.  ;-)

I'm also a fan of F1.

And MotoGP.

And....

:-)

I like performance whether I'm ragchewing, checking into a net, or doing
my part in some contest.  The K3 is without a doubt in my mind the
finest tool for dealing with anything that comes along no matter the
operating interest I am participating in.

73, de Nate, NØNB >>

--

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: Annoying contests

Tony Estep
On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 7:43 PM, Nate Bargmann <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ...I like performance whether I'm ragchewing..
===============
Yep, that is the key to progress in ham gear (and most other things
too). Everybody, even the no-code ragchewer, could adopt Nate's
attitude and demand great performance from their ham gear.

And contests, chasing DX in a massive split pileup, working EME, and
other on-the-edge stuff is the only way to really push the state of
the art forward. Anyone can claim that their radio meets some vague
esthetic standard of excellence, but full-throttle operating under
competitive conditions sorts the pretenders from the contenders.

Guy mentioned JA1MP as an innovator and creative force, and I think
it's a real shame that Brand Y has not pushed the envelope the way
they did when he was on the scene. By diligent effort, objective
self-criticism and terrific sensitivity to user feedback, Elecraft has
moved in front of the pack and promises to stay there. This is great,
but it would also be great to see even more of a hard-fought
competitive battle for the hearts and minds of contesters and DXers.


Tony KT0NY


--
http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352
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Re: Annoying contests

Ken
In reply to this post by Rick Stealey

On Feb 19, 2012, at 7:14 PM, Rick Stealey wrote:

> What about the poor net operators?  Can't someone
> invent a way for the rig to automatically give the temperature?  I mean, heck,
> Wayne already has the temperature sensor built in.  It monitors the front panel
> temperature on the K3.  Seems like Lyle could find a way to just interface it in with
> the cw keyer and it could automatically send your temperature when you
> (automatically) log in to the net..........


Well, since you brought it up....   ;-)   fldigi (digital and cw mode software) has a macro to automatically pick up the local airport weather and include it as a macro key....   ;-)

Ken WA8JXM
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Re: Annoying contests [END of Thread]

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
We're drifting WAY off topic. Let's end this thread.

(I would have jumped in earlier, but I was out of town at the Yuma, AZ,
ARRL Hamfest this weekend.)

73,
Eric
Elecraft List Moderator
---
www.elecraft.com


On 2/19/2012 7:11 PM, Ken wrote:

> On Feb 19, 2012, at 7:14 PM, Rick Stealey wrote:
>
>> What about the poor net operators?  Can't someone
>> invent a way for the rig to automatically give the temperature?  I mean, heck,
>> Wayne already has the temperature sensor built in.  It monitors the front panel
>> temperature on the K3.  Seems like Lyle could find a way to just interface it in with
>> the cw keyer and it could automatically send your temperature when you
>> (automatically) log in to the net..........
>
> Well, since you brought it up....   ;-)   fldigi (digital and cw mode software) has a macro to automatically pick up the local airport weather and include it as a macro key....   ;-)
>
> Ken WA8JXM
>
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Re: Annoying contests

Bill W4ZV
In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV
Guy, K2AV wrote
I AM left to wonder what an Art Collins would have done with another
company leaping into a new performance dimension.  I doubt the year would
pass without an answer.  Nor would JA1MP, for that matter.
Guy you're being way too kind to Yaesu and JA1MP.  For the record, it took Yaesu 13 years (!) to fix the key clicks that began with the FT-1000 (and repeated in the 1000MP, 1000Field, 1000MkV, etc).  It's very ironic that the FT-1000MP (so named for JA1MP) is probably responsible for 95% of the clicks you hear on the air today.  I will personally never buy another Yaesu product for all the key click grief they have created.

I have not doubt that Wayne would be working on a fix within 13 minutes (NOT 13 YEARS) of hearing about similar problems in the K3...and I've had some personal experience to back that claim!

73,  Bill  W4ZV
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Re: Annoying contests

Jim Brown-10
On 2/20/2012 2:02 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
> Guy you're being way too kind to Yaesu and JA1MP.  For the record, it took
> Yaesu 13 years (!) to fix the key clicks that began with the FT-1000 (and
> repeated in the 1000MP, 1000Field, 1000MkV, etc).

RIGHT ON!  And Icom rigs are responsible for a a ton of the phase noise.

Jim
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Re: Annoying contests

Guy, K2AV
JA1MP did not finish out the MP.  JA1MP was Yaesu before the fall.   If he
had been around to design and implement it, MP never would have been
clicky.  Point on FT1000MP's being primary click generators certainly not
disputed by me.  I had to take mine apart too.

73, Guy.

On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 2/20/2012 2:02 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
> > Guy you're being way too kind to Yaesu and JA1MP.  For the record, it
> took
> > Yaesu 13 years (!) to fix the key clicks that began with the FT-1000 (and
> > repeated in the 1000MP, 1000Field, 1000MkV, etc).
>
> RIGHT ON!  And Icom rigs are responsible for a a ton of the phase noise.
>
> Jim
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