Audio mixers

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Audio mixers

Cady, Fred
Hi all,
Happy 4th.
I'd like to use an audio mixer to mix computer and mic audio plus have kind of an intercom between two operators wearing headphones.  I know there are audio experts here so what suggestions might you have?
Thanks and 73,
Fred KE7X
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Re: Audio mixers

David McAnally
This was something we wondered about during field day. A way for operator
and logger to speak to each other over the headsets, as well as listen to
the QSOs.  Hearing both sides of the QSO was accomplished by using the
monitor feature on the K3.  However, the operator and logger wanted to
communicate with each other sometimes as well.

I added an external mixer
<http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KIPT30/ref=pe_385040_30332190_TE_M3T1_ST1_dp_1>
to allow TX monitor and RX audio to be sent to a video stream as well as
the headset for the logger. Combining mic audio from two headsets might be
a little more complicated, especially to be active during RX as well as TX.

David M.
WD5M

On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Cady, Fred <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
> Happy 4th.
> I'd like to use an audio mixer to mix computer and mic audio plus have
> kind of an intercom between two operators wearing headphones.  I know there
> are audio experts here so what suggestions might you have?
> Thanks and 73,
> Fred KE7X
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Re: Audio mixers

Jim Hooper
In reply to this post by Cady, Fred
Fred,

The ARRL 2012 Handbook has such a design, section 24.15 “An Audio Interface Unit for Field Day and Contesting.”    but I have not built it.

73,
Hoop
K9QJS



On Jul 3, 2015, at 10:43 , Cady, Fred <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi all,
Happy 4th.
I'd like to use an audio mixer to mix computer and mic audio plus have kind of an intercom between two operators wearing headphones.  I know there are audio experts here so what suggestions might you have?
Thanks and 73,
Fred KE7X
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Re: Audio mixers

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by Cady, Fred
On Fri,7/3/2015 10:43 AM, Cady, Fred wrote:
> I'd like to use an audio mixer to mix computer and mic audio plus have kind of an intercom between two operators wearing headphones.  I know there are audio experts here so what suggestions might you have?

The good stuff is made by Rane and Mackie.  I suggest that you sketch
out a one-line of inputs and outputs to see how many inputs, outputs,
and mixes that you need.  The line output of a pro mixer will easily
drive a set of headphones.  Behringer makes cheap, poor quality, (and
ripoff) copy.

A company called Radio Design Labs also has some nice modular stuff.

73, Jim K9YC



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Re: Audio mixers

Jim Brown-10
On Fri,7/3/2015 11:55 AM, Walter Underwood wrote:
> But hams are cheap! I just checked, and you can get 1970’s Shure mixers for $25 on eBay.

Yes, but 70s vintage Shure mixers won't do what Fred wants. The product
lines I mentioned should also be available on eBay.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Audio mixers

GaryK9GS
In reply to this post by David McAnally
Hello David,

Not singling you out or anything but I've often wondered why you need
separate operator and logger?  This seems to be a practice peculiar to
FD but I've never understood why the person operating the radio doesn't
do the logging too??



On 7/3/2015 1:15 PM, David McAnally wrote:

> This was something we wondered about during field day. A way for operator
> and logger to speak to each other over the headsets, as well as listen to
> the QSOs.  Hearing both sides of the QSO was accomplished by using the
> monitor feature on the K3.  However, the operator and logger wanted to
> communicate with each other sometimes as well.
>
> I added an external mixer
> <http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KIPT30/ref=pe_385040_30332190_TE_M3T1_ST1_dp_1>
> to allow TX monitor and RX audio to be sent to a video stream as well as
> the headset for the logger. Combining mic audio from two headsets might be
> a little more complicated, especially to be active during RX as well as TX.
>
> David M.
> WD5M
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Cady, Fred <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> Happy 4th.
>> I'd like to use an audio mixer to mix computer and mic audio plus have
>> kind of an intercom between two operators wearing headphones.  I know there
>> are audio experts here so what suggestions might you have?
>> Thanks and 73,
>> Fred KE7X
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
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>
> --
> 73,
>
> Gary K9GS
>
> Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org
> Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com
> CW Ops #1032   http://www.cwops.org
>
> ************************************************
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Re: Audio mixers

Jim Brown-10
On Fri,7/3/2015 7:52 PM, Gary K9GS wrote:
> Not singling you out or anything but I've often wondered why you need
> separate operator and logger?  This seems to be a practice peculiar to FD

Yes, this is a practice that goes back to #2 pencil logging and paper
dupe sheets. The first FD I was on, probably 1955 (a few months before I
was licensed) was done that way. Once computer logging came into
existence, there was no good reason for it, but some guys are stuck in
the past.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Audio mixers

James Bennett
In reply to this post by GaryK9GS

My guess would be for a CW contest station. Kind of a PITA to keep moving hand from keyer paddle to keyboard. Of course, if one could type with one hand and do CW with the other, that would be great. But I can't, so having a logger op would help the QSO rate.



> On Jul 3, 2015, at 7:52 PM, Gary K9GS <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello David,
>
> Not singling you out or anything but I've often wondered why you need separate operator and logger?  This seems to be a practice peculiar to FD but I've never understood why the person operating the radio doesn't do the logging too??
>
>
>
>> On 7/3/2015 1:15 PM, David McAnally wrote:
>> This was something we wondered about during field day. A way for operator
>> and logger to speak to each other over the headsets, as well as listen to
>> the QSOs.  Hearing both sides of the QSO was accomplished by using the
>> monitor feature on the K3.  However, the operator and logger wanted to
>> communicate with each other sometimes as well.
>>
>> I added an external mixer
>> <http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KIPT30/ref=pe_385040_30332190_TE_M3T1_ST1_dp_1>
>> to allow TX monitor and RX audio to be sent to a video stream as well as
>> the headset for the logger. Combining mic audio from two headsets might be
>> a little more complicated, especially to be active during RX as well as TX.
>>
>> David M.
>> WD5M
>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Cady, Fred <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>> Happy 4th.
>>> I'd like to use an audio mixer to mix computer and mic audio plus have
>>> kind of an intercom between two operators wearing headphones.  I know there
>>> are audio experts here so what suggestions might you have?
>>> Thanks and 73,
>>> Fred KE7X
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>>
>> --
>> 73,
>>
>> Gary K9GS
>>
>> Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org
>> Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com
>> CW Ops #1032   http://www.cwops.org
>>
>> ************************************************
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Audio mixers

Ian Kahn, KM4IK
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
The club I belong to uses a logger "op" at Field Day stations to introduce
new hams to HF and to contesting. It also provides a way for folks to
participate without feeling they are being pressured into operating in a
manner they aren't used to our don't want to.

73 de,

Ian, KM4IK
On Jul 3, 2015 11:14 PM, "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri,7/3/2015 7:52 PM, Gary K9GS wrote:
>
>> Not singling you out or anything but I've often wondered why you need
>> separate operator and logger?  This seems to be a practice peculiar to FD
>>
>
> Yes, this is a practice that goes back to #2 pencil logging and paper dupe
> sheets. The first FD I was on, probably 1955 (a few months before I was
> licensed) was done that way. Once computer logging came into existence,
> there was no good reason for it, but some guys are stuck in the past.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Paper Logs (was Audio mixers)

Lyle Johnson
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
Or, some guys just prefer to do it with paper and pencil.  I have lots
of ebooks, but I often prefer to grab a physical, printed-on-paper book
and curl up on the sofa and read.

Heck, I've even heard some guys are so stuck in the past they actually
use CW on HF!!!!

73,

Lyle KK7P (who is enjoying our independence and not forgetting the price
paid for it)

>> Not singling you out or anything but I've often wondered why you need
>> separate operator and logger?  This seems to be a practice peculiar
>> to FD
>
> Yes, this is a practice that goes back to #2 pencil logging and paper
> dupe sheets. The first FD I was on, probably 1955 (a few months before
> I was licensed) was done that way. Once computer logging came into
> existence, there was no good reason for it, but some guys are stuck in
> the past.

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Re: Paper Logs (was Audio mixers)

Jack Brindle-2
Lyle, I seriously doubt that, given the task of having to dupe and cross-check 500 or a thousand QSOs in a contest, that even you would be so nostalgic as to do it with the paper dupe sheets we used to have to use. These days if you are logging on paper you have already lost the contest…

73,

Jack, W6FB (who likewise is remembering all the folks, some close relations, who sacrificed for our freedom).
(and enjoys ribbing my good friend and co-worker...)


> On Jul 3, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Lyle Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Or, some guys just prefer to do it with paper and pencil.  I have lots of ebooks, but I often prefer to grab a physical, printed-on-paper book and curl up on the sofa and read.
>
> Heck, I've even heard some guys are so stuck in the past they actually use CW on HF!!!!
>
> 73,
>
> Lyle KK7P (who is enjoying our independence and not forgetting the price paid for it)
>
>>> Not singling you out or anything but I've often wondered why you need separate operator and logger?  This seems to be a practice peculiar to FD
>>
>> Yes, this is a practice that goes back to #2 pencil logging and paper dupe sheets. The first FD I was on, probably 1955 (a few months before I was licensed) was done that way. Once computer logging came into existence, there was no good reason for it, but some guys are stuck in the past.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Re: Audio mixers

Wes (N7WS)
In reply to this post by James Bennett
Nose, KH6IJ (SK) would just keep the last three or four contacts in his head
then write them down (on carbon copies) while working a slow one.

See: https://archive.org/details/73-magazine-1968-02   page 50.


On 7/3/2015 8:16 PM, James Bennett wrote:
> My guess would be for a CW contest station. Kind of a PITA to keep moving hand from keyer paddle to keyboard. Of course, if one could type with one hand and do CW with the other, that would be great. But I can't, so having a logger op would help the QSO rate.
>
>
>
>

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Re: Paper Logs (was Audio mixers)

David Cutter
In reply to this post by Jack Brindle-2
We hear a lot of criticism of paper logging but those teams of operator,
logger, check-logger 1, 2, 3 were great training for operators-to-be.  I
first started on field day as 3rd check-logger at the age of 10.  A
loudspeaker had to be on so we could all hear incoming traffic and that
meant that visitors could hear and appreciate what was going on with all
this activity.  Nowadays, the lone operator has his back to visitors who
have to keep quiet and all they see is a complicated rolling screen(s) of
characters.  I wouldn't go back, but I feel some fun for the rest of the
team has diminished somewhat.

3rd check-logger also made the tea on the Primus stove.  We were limited to
10W input in those days and nobody had heard of "emc."
73
David
G3UNA


----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Underwood" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 5:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Paper Logs (was Audio mixers)


Paper logging is pretty common for emergency communications. Unlike
contests, the messages can be anything. It is common to have a net control
and scribe working as a team.

Most of the time, that can be done with a simple headphone distribution amp,
but there are fancier setups.

wunder
K6WRU
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

On Jul 3, 2015, at 10:08 PM, Jack Brindle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Lyle, I seriously doubt that, given the task of having to dupe and
> cross-check 500 or a thousand QSOs in a contest, that even you would be so
> nostalgic as to do it with the paper dupe sheets we used to have to use.
> These days if you are logging on paper you have already lost the contest…
>
> 73,
>
> Jack, W6FB (who likewise is remembering all the folks, some close
> relations, who sacrificed for our freedom).
> (and enjoys ribbing my good friend and co-worker...)
>
>
>> On Jul 3, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Lyle Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Or, some guys just prefer to do it with paper and pencil.  I have lots of
>> ebooks, but I often prefer to grab a physical, printed-on-paper book and
>> curl up on the sofa and read.
>>
>> Heck, I've even heard some guys are so stuck in the past they actually
>> use CW on HF!!!!
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Lyle KK7P (who is enjoying our independence and not forgetting the price
>> paid for it)
>>
>>>> Not singling you out or anything but I've often wondered why you need
>>>> separate operator and logger?  This seems to be a practice peculiar to
>>>> FD
>>>
>>> Yes, this is a practice that goes back to #2 pencil logging and paper
>>> dupe sheets. The first FD I was on, probably 1955 (a few months before I
>>> was licensed) was done that way. Once computer logging came into
>>> existence, there was no good reason for it, but some guys are stuck in
>>> the past.
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Audio mixers

Tony Estep
In reply to this post by Wes (N7WS)
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Wes (N7WS) <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Nose, KH6IJ (SK) would just keep the last three or four contacts in his
> head...

===========
Yeah, and he could send with one hand and log with the other. A legend!

Tony KT0NY
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Re: Audio mixers

k6dgw
In reply to this post by GaryK9GS
It used to be a FD tradition of sorts, a way to introduce new folks into
ham radio.  Before computers were invented, you kept a chronological
log, and a manual dupe sheet with 10 columns numbered 0 thru 9 into
which you wrote the suffix of each call worked in the appropriate
column.  In those days, there were vastly fewer prefixes than we have
today, and the suffix was sufficient to determine that the guy you were
listening to was not a dupe.

in the later 70's, my non-ham neighbor wanted to see what FD was all
about so he became my logger on CW.  I showed him the numbers and the
class letters [there were only about half of what we have now].  He
started with no Morse knowledge, by the end, he was copying the exchange
pretty much all the time, and getting the calls right every now and
then.  He never got a license however, the concept of having a new
logger doesn't always yield a new ham.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 7/3/2015 7:52 PM, Gary K9GS wrote:
> Hello David,
>
> Not singling you out or anything but I've often wondered why you need
> separate operator and logger?  This seems to be a practice peculiar to
> FD but I've never understood why the person operating the radio doesn't
> do the logging too??

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Re: Paper Logs (was Audio mixers)

Edward R Cole
In reply to this post by Lyle Johnson
This reply is kind of OT, but you might find that emergency comms
often utilizes a second person for logging messages while the radio
operator concentrates on comms.

I retired in 2009 after 15 years working as comm tech for a major
(one of three in Alaska) oil spill recover organization (OSRO).  I
rarely worked as radio operator but I was in-charge of the total
operations of comms which is part of Logistics in the Incident
Command System (ICS).

Using two operators one primary and other assisting with recording
messages improved speed and accuracy considerably.  Communications is
one of the most difficult parts of an emergency response, and without
efficient comms the whole process bogs down.  The oil industry had no
understanding of ICS when the Exxon Valdez grounded in 1989 so much
was learned/improved in the aftermath.  The basic form came from
military comms and first applied to USFS fire response.

Two sets of ears and two heads improves comms a whole bunch (even ham
contesting, if it is complicated).  Our local FD operation uses
computer logging but still often have a logger assistant.  Plus It is
a great way to introduce FD to newbies.

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
     "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
     [hidden email]

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Re: Audio mixers

k6dgw
In reply to this post by Tony Estep
Art, W6RMK [SK], who was left-handed taught a 12 year old left-hander
the code in his dining room.  He insisted, "We will send right-handed so
you can write legibly in your log book with your left."  Log books were
sacred then [50's], you logged every time you made RF regardless of why
you did it.  I found my first logs cleaning out when my mom died and
every CQ was logged whether it was answered or not [many weren't].

For many years, that's exactly what I did.  A number of years ago, we
conducted a small survey here on this list and one result was that about
35-40% of respondents who think of themselves as left-handed paddled
right most of the time, all of them for my Elmer's reason.  0% of the
right-handed respondents paddled left.

Sending right really helps if you guest op, most stations are set up for
right-handers.  As logging requirements were disappearing, I have
migrated to left-handed sending and probably do it now around half the
time, I have a paddle on each side of the laptop.  Art's grandson Jim
now holds W6RMK.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 7/4/2015 8:37 AM, Tony Estep wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Wes (N7WS) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Nose, KH6IJ (SK) would just keep the last three or four contacts in his
>> head...
>
> ===========
> Yeah, and he could send with one hand and log with the other. A legend!
>
> Tony KT0NY

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Re: Paper Logs (was Audio mixers)

David McAnally
In reply to this post by Lyle Johnson
Gary,

Several have provided some reasons. During field day we try to share some
responsibilities. It helps involve more people. We operate two HF stations,
and one is dedicated to 6M. We logged over 950 contacts this year, which
was more than double our best year. We're pretty casual on field day. I
think most of those contacts were with a separate operator and a logger.
Our most experienced contest operator went through contacts so fast the
logger had some trouble keeping up at times. Luckily, he sometimes jotted
down info on paper, which helped with corrections.

David M.
WD5M

On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 9:52 PM, Gary K9GS <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello David,
>
> Not singling you out or anything but I've often wondered why you need
> separate operator and logger?  This seems to be a practice peculiar to FD
> but I've never understood why the person operating the radio doesn't do the
> logging too??
>
>
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Audio Mixers

Edward A. Dauer
In reply to this post by Cady, Fred
Audio mixers that do exactly this are ubiquitous in aircraft.  Many are
now integrated into the Nav-Comms, others were integrated into audio
panels along with the Marker Beacon receivers; but in the stripped-down GA
trainers of 20 plus years ago we used to use portable units, measuring
about 4 inches by 2 inches by 2 inches,  powered by a 9 volt battery, and
held onto the panel with adhesive-backed Velcro (the GA pilot's best
friend.)  They came in two-place, four place and six place.  I’ll bet they
are abundant on E-bay-type used equipment sites, since new avionics has
the functions all built-in.  

Simple switches allowed communication just between pilots (so ATC couldn’t
hear the CFI scaring the student), or between one pilot and ATC (so the
student couldn’t hear the CFI asking ATC to scare the student), or both.  
The four-place and six-place allowed passengers to listen and talk with
the pilots but not communicate with ATC (so the pilots could scare just
them.)  I don’t know if they would be compatible with modern amateur
transceivers — but they used to be as common as dirt and cost about as
much.  Anyone looked into it?


Ted, KN1CBR (and ex-CFI)

>Message: 27
>Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2015 13:15:44 -0500
>From: David McAnally <[hidden email]>
>To: K3 List <[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Audio mixers
>Message-ID:
> <[hidden email]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>This was something we wondered about during field day. A way for operator
>and logger to speak to each other over the headsets, as well as listen to
>the QSOs.  Hearing both sides of the QSO was accomplished by using the
>monitor feature on the K3.  However, the operator and logger wanted to
>communicate with each other sometimes as well.
>
>I added an external mixer
><http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KIPT30/ref=pe_385040_30332190_TE_M3T1_ST1_dp
>_1>
>to allow TX monitor and RX audio to be sent to a video stream as well as
>the headset for the logger. Combining mic audio from two headsets might be
>a little more complicated, especially to be active during RX as well as
>TX.
>
>David M.
>WD5M
>
>On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Cady, Fred <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> Happy 4th.
>> I'd like to use an audio mixer to mix computer and mic audio plus have
>> kind of an intercom between two operators wearing headphones.  I know
>>there
>> are audio experts here so what suggestions might you have?
>> Thanks and 73,
>> Fred KE7X
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>
>
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Re: Audio mixers

wa9fvp
In reply to this post by Cady, Fred
Here's what I use (viewed at nabble.com) .  I can interface 3 different radios, both directions, to computers, communications terminals or (back several years ago) tape recorders.  The switches allow me to select any combination of radios or data/recorder devices.

K3 to Computer Interface
Jack WA9FVP

Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
12