Blouvet

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Blouvet

Keith Lamonica-2
W7DXX remote is ready for Bouvet with a brand new KPA1500. (www.w7dxx.com)

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Re: Bouvet

ab2tc
Hi Elecrafters,

His site asks the question "is this legal?" Presumably, as far as FCC is
concerned it is. But if I work Bouvet using this remote, can I really claim
DXCC credit for myself for it? It would seem exceptionally unfair. Doesn't
ARRL have a rule for as how far you can move from place to place and still
claim accumulated DXCC credits? I find this highly troubling. I would never
use this. I want my DXCC to be real (well over 200 credits from 100W (K3 of
course) and a dipole at a single location).

AB2TC - Knut

PS. I fixed the typo in the subject line.
PS. Is this expedition for real? They are heading into stormy fall weather
and expect to stay on the island for more than two weeks. Do they have any
helicopters? I thought the Norwegian government forbade beach landings due
to the disruption if wildlife.


Keith Lamonica-2 wrote
> W7DXX remote is ready for Bouvet with a brand new KPA1500. (www.w7dxx.com)
>
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Re: Blouvet

W2xj
In reply to this post by Keith Lamonica-2
Is the same Keith from radio in the sixties?

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 23, 2019, at 4:09 PM, Keith Lamonica <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> W7DXX remote is ready for Bouvet with a brand new KPA1500. (www.w7dxx.com)
>
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> Elecraft mailing list
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Re: Bouvet

Don Wilhelm
In reply to this post by ab2tc
Knut,

If I recall, the DXCC credit is for the location of the transmitting
station, so if you are operating remotely, it would be the location of
the station you are remoting into, not your control location.

73,
Don W3FPR


On 3/23/2019 5:34 PM, ab2tc wrote:
> Hi Elecrafters,
>
> His site asks the question "is this legal?" Presumably, as far as FCC is
> concerned it is. But if I work Bouvet using this remote, can I really claim
> DXCC credit for myself for it? It would seem exceptionally unfair. Doesn't
> ARRL have a rule for as how far you can move from place to place and still
> claim accumulated DXCC credits? I find this highly troubling. I would never
> use this. I want my DXCC to be real (well over 200 credits from 100W (K3 of
> course) and a dipole at a single location).
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Re: Bouvet

Rick WA6NHC-2
While the ARRL has accepted remotes as 'legal' for DXCC credit (a
dubious decision) IF the user is within the same entity as the rest of
the DXCC entries on the application, it then becomes a moral issue. 
It's faster than driving around the entity for better propagation, also
entirely 'legit'; or owning several stations scattered about (also legal
for DXCC and brings up the argument of 'buying' the DXCC, ignored for
the moment).

Ultimately, all operators must live with the moral choices they've
made... no one else can shame or praise them as much as they do to
themselves; presuming that each is honest to ones self.

I can say with certainty that every entry in my log was made with my
radio, using my antenna(s) that I put up personally (sometimes with
assistance in this arena).  Since I don't really compete against others
and my fiercest competition, is me.  That is the (moral) choice one must
use; to be true to self.  I refer to any DXCC standings, simply to see
how I'm doing in the overall 'game'.  Using my station remotely while
traveling, doesn't affect that; it's still MY station.

In fairness, not everyone can have a station these days (HOA, budget,
space) so there is a place for a remote station... I'm not belittling
that.  But HOW it's used, is again, a moral choice.  For me, having a
selection of rented stations about, just to use the best propagation,
violates my ethics.  Choose wisely, you have to live with yourself.

73
Rick NHC

On 3/23/2019 3:05 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Knut,
>
> If I recall, the DXCC credit is for the location of the transmitting
> station, so if you are operating remotely, it would be the location of
> the station you are remoting into, not your control location.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> On 3/23/2019 5:34 PM, ab2tc wrote:
>> Hi Elecrafters,
>>
>> His site asks the question "is this legal?" Presumably, as far as FCC is
>> concerned it is. But if I work Bouvet using this remote, can I really
>> claim
>> DXCC credit for myself for it? It would seem exceptionally unfair.
>> Doesn't
>> ARRL have a rule for as how far you can move from place to place and
>> still
>> claim accumulated DXCC credits? I find this highly troubling. I would
>> never
>> use this. I want my DXCC to be real (well over 200 credits from 100W
>> (K3 of
>> course) and a dipole at a single location).
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Re: Bouvet

marvwheeler
Well said Rick.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Rick WA6NHC
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2019 3:24 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Bouvet

While the ARRL has accepted remotes as 'legal' for DXCC credit (a dubious decision) IF the user is within the same entity as the rest of the DXCC entries on the application, it then becomes a moral issue. It's faster than driving around the entity for better propagation, also entirely 'legit'; or owning several stations scattered about (also legal for DXCC and brings up the argument of 'buying' the DXCC, ignored for the moment).

Ultimately, all operators must live with the moral choices they've made... no one else can shame or praise them as much as they do to themselves; presuming that each is honest to ones self.

I can say with certainty that every entry in my log was made with my radio, using my antenna(s) that I put up personally (sometimes with assistance in this arena).  Since I don't really compete against others and my fiercest competition, is me.  That is the (moral) choice one must use; to be true to self.  I refer to any DXCC standings, simply to see how I'm doing in the overall 'game'.  Using my station remotely while traveling, doesn't affect that; it's still MY station.

In fairness, not everyone can have a station these days (HOA, budget,
space) so there is a place for a remote station... I'm not belittling that.  But HOW it's used, is again, a moral choice.  For me, having a selection of rented stations about, just to use the best propagation, violates my ethics.  Choose wisely, you have to live with yourself.

73
Rick NHC

On 3/23/2019 3:05 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Knut,
>
> If I recall, the DXCC credit is for the location of the transmitting
> station, so if you are operating remotely, it would be the location of
> the station you are remoting into, not your control location.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> On 3/23/2019 5:34 PM, ab2tc wrote:
>> Hi Elecrafters,
>>
>> His site asks the question "is this legal?" Presumably, as far as FCC
>> is concerned it is. But if I work Bouvet using this remote, can I
>> really claim DXCC credit for myself for it? It would seem
>> exceptionally unfair.
>> Doesn't
>> ARRL have a rule for as how far you can move from place to place and
>> still claim accumulated DXCC credits? I find this highly troubling. I
>> would never use this. I want my DXCC to be real (well over 200
>> credits from 100W
>> (K3 of
>> course) and a dipole at a single location).
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Re: Bouvet

ab2tc
In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2
Hi Rick and all,

Clearly, operating your own home station from a remote location is not a
problem at all, morally or legally. Operating a remote "superstation", even
if domestic, from your home location (or other place) in order to add DXCC
credits to your home call clearly is. So you are saying that's as long as
the "superstation" is domestic, it's OK. Rules need to be changed.

See Eric, I didn't end the sentence with "period". I am learning.

AB2TC - Knut



Rick WA6NHC-2 wrote

> While the ARRL has accepted remotes as 'legal' for DXCC credit (a
> dubious decision) IF the user is within the same entity as the rest of
> the DXCC entries on the application, it then becomes a moral issue. 
> It's faster than driving around the entity for better propagation, also
> entirely 'legit'; or owning several stations scattered about (also legal
> for DXCC and brings up the argument of 'buying' the DXCC, ignored for
> the moment).
>
> Ultimately, all operators must live with the moral choices they've
> made... no one else can shame or praise them as much as they do to
> themselves; presuming that each is honest to ones self.
>
> I can say with certainty that every entry in my log was made with my
> radio, using my antenna(s) that I put up personally (sometimes with
> assistance in this arena).  Since I don't really compete against others
> and my fiercest competition, is me.  That is the (moral) choice one must
> use; to be true to self.  I refer to any DXCC standings, simply to see
> how I'm doing in the overall 'game'.  Using my station remotely while
> traveling, doesn't affect that; it's still MY station.
>
> In fairness, not everyone can have a station these days (HOA, budget,
> space) so there is a place for a remote station... I'm not belittling
> that.  But HOW it's used, is again, a moral choice.  For me, having a
> selection of rented stations about, just to use the best propagation,
> violates my ethics.  Choose wisely, you have to live with yourself.
>
> 73
> Rick NHC
>
> On 3/23/2019 3:05 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Knut,
>>
>> If I recall, the DXCC credit is for the location of the transmitting
>> station, so if you are operating remotely, it would be the location of
>> the station you are remoting into, not your control location.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
> <snip>





--
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Re: Bouvet

wayne burdick
Administrator
I avoid even a hint of impropriety by only counting contacts I make on a KX2, miles from civilization, without a computer in sight, with cellphone off, and logging by hand. I credit myself bonus points for inclement weather, mosquitos, etc.

Try it sometime ... it's refreshing, not least of which because there's no urban noise, RF, acoustic, or political.

Of course it's going to take one helluva backpack antenna to break the pileup at 10 W. Film at 11.

73,
Wayne
N6KR




> On Mar 23, 2019, at 4:04 PM, ab2tc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Rick and all,
>
> Clearly, operating your own home station from a remote location is not a
> problem at all, morally or legally. Operating a remote "superstation", even
> if domestic, from your home location (or other place) in order to add DXCC
> credits to your home call clearly is. So you are saying that's as long as
> the "superstation" is domestic, it's OK. Rules need to be changed.
>
> See Eric, I didn't end the sentence with "period". I am learning.
>
> AB2TC - Knut
>
>
>
> Rick WA6NHC-2 wrote
>> While the ARRL has accepted remotes as 'legal' for DXCC credit (a
>> dubious decision) IF the user is within the same entity as the rest of
>> the DXCC entries on the application, it then becomes a moral issue.  
>> It's faster than driving around the entity for better propagation, also
>> entirely 'legit'; or owning several stations scattered about (also legal
>> for DXCC and brings up the argument of 'buying' the DXCC, ignored for
>> the moment).
>>
>> Ultimately, all operators must live with the moral choices they've
>> made... no one else can shame or praise them as much as they do to
>> themselves; presuming that each is honest to ones self.
>>
>> I can say with certainty that every entry in my log was made with my
>> radio, using my antenna(s) that I put up personally (sometimes with
>> assistance in this arena).  Since I don't really compete against others
>> and my fiercest competition, is me.  That is the (moral) choice one must
>> use; to be true to self.  I refer to any DXCC standings, simply to see
>> how I'm doing in the overall 'game'.  Using my station remotely while
>> traveling, doesn't affect that; it's still MY station.
>>
>> In fairness, not everyone can have a station these days (HOA, budget,
>> space) so there is a place for a remote station... I'm not belittling
>> that.  But HOW it's used, is again, a moral choice.  For me, having a
>> selection of rented stations about, just to use the best propagation,
>> violates my ethics.  Choose wisely, you have to live with yourself.
>>
>> 73
>> Rick NHC
>>
>> On 3/23/2019 3:05 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>> Knut,
>>>
>>> If I recall, the DXCC credit is for the location of the transmitting
>>> station, so if you are operating remotely, it would be the location of
>>> the station you are remoting into, not your control location.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>> <snip>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Bouvet

Buck
In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm
That is my understanding.  The location of the transmitter is what
controls.

k4ia, Buck
K3# 101
Honor Roll  8B DXCC
EasyWayHamBooks.com

On 3/23/2019 6:05 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Knut,
>
> If I recall, the DXCC credit is for the location of the transmitting
> station, so if you are operating remotely, it would be the location of
> the station you are remoting into, not your control location.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> On 3/23/2019 5:34 PM, ab2tc wrote:
>> Hi Elecrafters,
>>
>> His site asks the question "is this legal?" Presumably, as far as FCC is
>> concerned it is. But if I work Bouvet using this remote, can I really
>> claim
>> DXCC credit for myself for it? It would seem exceptionally unfair.
>> Doesn't
>> ARRL have a rule for as how far you can move from place to place and
>> still
>> claim accumulated DXCC credits? I find this highly troubling. I would
>> never
>> use this. I want my DXCC to be real (well over 200 credits from 100W
>> (K3 of
>> course) and a dipole at a single location).
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Re: Bouvet

Wes Stewart-2
In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2
Totally agree.  See my QRZ bio.

Wes  N7WS

On 3/23/2019 3:24 PM, Rick WA6NHC wrote:

> While the ARRL has accepted remotes as 'legal' for DXCC credit (a dubious
> decision) IF the user is within the same entity as the rest of the DXCC
> entries on the application, it then becomes a moral issue.  It's faster than
> driving around the entity for better propagation, also entirely 'legit'; or
> owning several stations scattered about (also legal for DXCC and brings up the
> argument of 'buying' the DXCC, ignored for the moment).
>
> Ultimately, all operators must live with the moral choices they've made... no
> one else can shame or praise them as much as they do to themselves; presuming
> that each is honest to ones self.
>
> I can say with certainty that every entry in my log was made with my radio,
> using my antenna(s) that I put up personally (sometimes with assistance in
> this arena).  Since I don't really compete against others and my fiercest
> competition, is me.  That is the (moral) choice one must use; to be true to
> self.  I refer to any DXCC standings, simply to see how I'm doing in the
> overall 'game'.  Using my station remotely while traveling, doesn't affect
> that; it's still MY station.
>
> In fairness, not everyone can have a station these days (HOA, budget, space)
> so there is a place for a remote station... I'm not belittling that.  But HOW
> it's used, is again, a moral choice. For me, having a selection of rented
> stations about, just to use the best propagation, violates my ethics.  Choose
> wisely, you have to live with yourself.
>
> 73
> Rick NHC

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Re: Bouvet

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by ab2tc
  On 3/23/2019 2:34 PM, ab2tc wrote:
> But if I work Bouvet using this remote, can I really claim
> DXCC credit for myself for it?
DXCC rules say that you can count a QSO made from any STATION location
(that is, where RF is transmitted and received,) anywhere in the lower
48 states.
> It would seem exceptionally unfair. Doesn't
> ARRL have a rule for as how far you can move from place to place and still
> claim accumulated DXCC credits?

Yep.

> I find this highly troubling.

Me too. When I moved from Chicago to NorCal 12 years ago I started over
with DXCC. There's a guy who takes pride in being at/near the top of
DXCC on 160M, but he started in CO, then moved to NC.  I strongly
approve of operating remotely from a station that is close to you,
especially if you built the station!  I view with contempt those who
would use remote operation of a station much much closer to DX than
their own, or even rent that station and travel to it, and count QSOs
made from that station for DXCC.

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: Bouvet

k6dgw
I wonder sometimes if DXCC has become an oxymoron of magnitude similar
to NTS?  When originally conceived, actually contacting 100 "countries"
was a huge endeavor.  Even making transoceanic contacts between the
largest of stations was very difficult.  Today's world is so very very
different.  When So. Sudan showed up, a new-ish ham said to me, "I've
never seen such pileups!"  I told him, "ATNO for everyone and those who
sit at the top of the list with 'all' of them need to keep their seats."

After I worked BS7H, I showed my wife a photo of W6RGG at one of the
positions.  She said, "You count that rock as a country?"  I started to
explain and then passed, the rock is claimed by more than one country of
course and I'd already been through it with her over VP6DI.

As I said when I started this, I just wondered recently while in the shower.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/23/2019 6:52 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

>  On 3/23/2019 2:34 PM, ab2tc wrote:
>> But if I work Bouvet using this remote, can I really claim
>> DXCC credit for myself for it?
> DXCC rules say that you can count a QSO made from any STATION location
> (that is, where RF is transmitted and received,) anywhere in the lower
> 48 states.
>> It would seem exceptionally unfair. Doesn't
>> ARRL have a rule for as how far you can move from place to place and
>> still
>> claim accumulated DXCC credits?
>
> Yep.
>
>> I find this highly troubling.
>
> Me too. When I moved from Chicago to NorCal 12 years ago I started
> over with DXCC. There's a guy who takes pride in being at/near the top
> of DXCC on 160M, but he started in CO, then moved to NC.  I strongly
> approve of operating remotely from a station that is close to you,
> especially if you built the station!  I view with contempt those who
> would use remote operation of a station much much closer to DX than
> their own, or even rent that station and travel to it, and count QSOs
> made from that station for DXCC.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

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Re: Bouvet

k6dgw
In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2
Agreed Rick and well said.  I occasionally operate W7RN [a west coast
superstation] remotely.  Any DX contacts made will not be claimed for
DXCC.  The station is close [50 km or so], and it would certainly be
within the letter of the rules, but it doesn't feel right.  Fortunately,
this is all a moot issue for me since,

1.  My occasional operations are usually for specific purposes [not DX] and;

2.  So far, I haven't worked any DX;

3.  And, I may never get around to submitting my claim for a DXCC
upgrade from LoTW+cards.

The radio world has changed dramatically since DXCC was invented. I'm
really glad I don't have to make/update the rules.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/23/2019 3:24 PM, Rick WA6NHC wrote:

> While the ARRL has accepted remotes as 'legal' for DXCC credit (a
> dubious decision) IF the user is within the same entity as the rest of
> the DXCC entries on the application, it then becomes a moral issue. 
> It's faster than driving around the entity for better propagation,
> also entirely 'legit'; or owning several stations scattered about
> (also legal for DXCC and brings up the argument of 'buying' the DXCC,
> ignored for the moment).
>
> Ultimately, all operators must live with the moral choices they've
> made... no one else can shame or praise them as much as they do to
> themselves; presuming that each is honest to ones self.
>
> I can say with certainty that every entry in my log was made with my
> radio, using my antenna(s) that I put up personally (sometimes with
> assistance in this arena).  Since I don't really compete against
> others and my fiercest competition, is me.  That is the (moral) choice
> one must use; to be true to self.  I refer to any DXCC standings,
> simply to see how I'm doing in the overall 'game'.  Using my station
> remotely while traveling, doesn't affect that; it's still MY station.
>
> In fairness, not everyone can have a station these days (HOA, budget,
> space) so there is a place for a remote station... I'm not belittling
> that.  But HOW it's used, is again, a moral choice. For me, having a
> selection of rented stations about, just to use the best propagation,
> violates my ethics.  Choose wisely, you have to live with yourself.
>
> 73
> Rick NHC

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Re: Bouvet

Dave wo2x
Rick said it well.

I have modest antennas compared to big gun stations but I have been able to get 8 band DXCC and 311 countries worked since 2006. All are from my home QTH. I’d be cheating myself if I used a West Coast station to work into Asia.

I do operate remote. My home station while on vacation or from my office during lunch. But it is still using my QTH.

I helped my friend set up his station in Hawaii for remote operation and I have operated his station both while there and remotely. I maintain a KH6/ log for those contacts. I have worked Laos from there but never from home. I was thrilled the time I worked Viet Nam from my NJ QTH.

They don’t call it Honor Roll for nothing.

Dave wo2x
Vice President
North Jersey DX Association


Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 23, 2019, at 10:17 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Agreed Rick and well said.  I occasionally operate W7RN [a west coast superstation] remotely.  Any DX contacts made will not be claimed for DXCC.  The station is close [50 km or so], and it would certainly be within the letter of the rules, but it doesn't feel right.  Fortunately, this is all a moot issue for me since,
>
> 1.  My occasional operations are usually for specific purposes [not DX] and;
>
> 2.  So far, I haven't worked any DX;
>
> 3.  And, I may never get around to submitting my claim for a DXCC upgrade from LoTW+cards.
>
> The radio world has changed dramatically since DXCC was invented. I'm really glad I don't have to make/update the rules.
>
> 73,
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
>> On 3/23/2019 3:24 PM, Rick WA6NHC wrote:
>> While the ARRL has accepted remotes as 'legal' for DXCC credit (a dubious decision) IF the user is within the same entity as the rest of the DXCC entries on the application, it then becomes a moral issue.  It's faster than driving around the entity for better propagation, also entirely 'legit'; or owning several stations scattered about (also legal for DXCC and brings up the argument of 'buying' the DXCC, ignored for the moment).
>>
>> Ultimately, all operators must live with the moral choices they've made... no one else can shame or praise them as much as they do to themselves; presuming that each is honest to ones self.
>>
>> I can say with certainty that every entry in my log was made with my radio, using my antenna(s) that I put up personally (sometimes with assistance in this arena).  Since I don't really compete against others and my fiercest competition, is me.  That is the (moral) choice one must use; to be true to self.  I refer to any DXCC standings, simply to see how I'm doing in the overall 'game'.  Using my station remotely while traveling, doesn't affect that; it's still MY station.
>>
>> In fairness, not everyone can have a station these days (HOA, budget, space) so there is a place for a remote station... I'm not belittling that.  But HOW it's used, is again, a moral choice. For me, having a selection of rented stations about, just to use the best propagation, violates my ethics.  Choose wisely, you have to live with yourself.
>>
>> 73
>> Rick NHC
>
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Re: Bouvet

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Administrator
Folks,

This remote station dxcc (or contesting) operation ethics and policy pro/con thread is now closed.

As regularly noted here previously, OT amateur radio policy, ethics, and related topics, even though they generate passionate opinions, are to be discussed elsewhere. These are endless pro/con discussions that can consume an incredible amount of list bandwidth from a limited number of posters, overloading our other list readers

In the interest of keeping the Elecraft list readable, without posting volume overload, and interesting to the vast majority of our over 7000 direct subscribers and users of Elecraft gear, these topics are better pursued on other forums.

73,
Eric. WA6HHQ
Moderator, even occasionally late at night..
elecraft.com
---
Sent from my iPhone 6S

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Re: Bouvet

KEN-3
In reply to this post by k6dgw
DXing has changed dramatically since the spotting networks arrived.  It
used to be that people read the out of date QST DX column and tuned
around the band.

Ken WA8JXM


On 3/23/19 10:17 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> The radio world has changed dramatically since DXCC was invented. I'm
> really glad I don't have to make/update the rules.
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