Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

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Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

Phil Hystad-3
I have a curiosity question.  Why is the KXFL3 roofing filter an option on the KX3?  I mean, why is it not a built-in feature of the KX3?  First, I already own a KX3 with the KXFL3 filter so I am not asking this in order to choose to buy or not.  Caveat:  I am also a neophyte (philistine, ignorant, or troglodyte) in this sort of radio technology and still in learner mode.

But, it seems to me that the KXFL3 roofing filter is almost required with a radio as nice as the KX3.  Without it, as I understand the function, any crowded band interval like a pileup or close-in CW signals and such would render a KX3 (without the roofing filter) with less than the usual Elecraft stellar RX performance.

My guess, and this is only a wild guess, is that maybe the option leads this space open to future improved roofing filters?  Or, maybe even leave it open to a 3rd party market supplied filter (although, I think this filter is particularly different from other typical 3rd party filters).

73, phil, K7PEH



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Re: Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

wayne burdick
Administrator
Hi Phil,

The roofing filter module (KXFL3) is expensive for us to manufacture because of the extremely tight tolerances on the capacitors (0.1% in some cases). They have to be matched by hand.

We didn't want to pass this cost on to all KX3 users, since many of them don't require the roofing filters. Even without them, the KX3's receiver performance would fall into the top 6 or so radios as measured by Sherwood Engineering (http://www.sherweng.com/table.html).

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Apr 10, 2014, at 7:56 AM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have a curiosity question.  Why is the KXFL3 roofing filter an option on the KX3?  I mean, why is it not a built-in feature of the KX3?  First, I already own a KX3 with the KXFL3 filter so I am not asking this in order to choose to buy or not.  Caveat:  I am also a neophyte (philistine, ignorant, or troglodyte) in this sort of radio technology and still in learner mode.
>
> But, it seems to me that the KXFL3 roofing filter is almost required with a radio as nice as the KX3.  Without it, as I understand the function, any crowded band interval like a pileup or close-in CW signals and such would render a KX3 (without the roofing filter) with less than the usual Elecraft stellar RX performance.
>
> My guess, and this is only a wild guess, is that maybe the option leads this space open to future improved roofing filters?  Or, maybe even leave it open to a 3rd party market supplied filter (although, I think this filter is particularly different from other typical 3rd party filters).
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH



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Re: Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

Phil Hystad-3
I figured cost was likely the main reason but then when I bought the KX3.  I do have another question on the KX3 but I need to study the technical aspects of the question first and maybe I can answer it myself (it has to do with the mixer).

phil


On Apr 10, 2014, at 8:02 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Phil,
>
> The roofing filter module (KXFL3) is expensive for us to manufacture because of the extremely tight tolerances on the capacitors (0.1% in some cases). They have to be matched by hand.
>
> We didn't want to pass this cost on to all KX3 users, since many of them don't require the roofing filters. Even without them, the KX3's receiver performance would fall into the top 6 or so radios as measured by Sherwood Engineering (http://www.sherweng.com/table.html).
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> On Apr 10, 2014, at 7:56 AM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I have a curiosity question.  Why is the KXFL3 roofing filter an option on the KX3?  I mean, why is it not a built-in feature of the KX3?  First, I already own a KX3 with the KXFL3 filter so I am not asking this in order to choose to buy or not.  Caveat:  I am also a neophyte (philistine, ignorant, or troglodyte) in this sort of radio technology and still in learner mode.
>>
>> But, it seems to me that the KXFL3 roofing filter is almost required with a radio as nice as the KX3.  Without it, as I understand the function, any crowded band interval like a pileup or close-in CW signals and such would render a KX3 (without the roofing filter) with less than the usual Elecraft stellar RX performance.
>>
>> My guess, and this is only a wild guess, is that maybe the option leads this space open to future improved roofing filters?  Or, maybe even leave it open to a 3rd party market supplied filter (although, I think this filter is particularly different from other typical 3rd party filters).
>>
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
>

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Re: Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

KV5J
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
Wayne,

So is the KX3's receiver performance as measured by Sherwood Engineering with the optional filter?

Keith Ennis
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Re: Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

wayne burdick
Administrator
He measured it both ways. Both numbers are in the chart.

Wayne
N6KR

On Apr 10, 2014, at 8:29 AM, XE3/K5ENS <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Wayne,
>
> So is the KX3's receiver performance as measured by Sherwood Engineering
> with the optional filter?
>
> Keith Ennis
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Curious-why-is-KXFL3-roofing-filter-an-option-on-KX3-tp7586967p7586971.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

Jim Bennett
In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3
Hi Phil -

I've had my KX3 since Christmas of last year. Also have a fairly well decked-out K3. My KX3 does NOT have the optional KXFL3 roofing filter. However, in the time that I've had the KX3 and been able to compare it's receive performance to that of the K3 - I have to say that I don't see any need (in my case) for the added expense. Granted, I don't do that much contesting, although I have dipped my toes into a couple here and there, as I was trying to pick off a few states to close out my 5BWAS. I've also used the KX3 in a number of fairly big pileups and the little rig has performed very well. It would be nice to have two of them, just to be able to compare having or not having the roofing filter. I know that you can "turn it on or off" in the menu but that might not be a valid way to compare.

Anyway, I'm quite pleased with the receive performance of my KX3 w/o the filter.

Jim / W6JHB


On   Thursday, Apr 10, 2014, at  Thursday, 7:56 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:

> I have a curiosity question.  Why is the KXFL3 roofing filter an option on the KX3?  I mean, why is it not a built-in feature of the KX3?  First, I already own a KX3 with the KXFL3 filter so I am not asking this in order to choose to buy or not.  Caveat:  I am also a neophyte (philistine, ignorant, or troglodyte) in this sort of radio technology and still in learner mode.
>
> But, it seems to me that the KXFL3 roofing filter is almost required with a radio as nice as the KX3.  Without it, as I understand the function, any crowded band interval like a pileup or close-in CW signals and such would render a KX3 (without the roofing filter) with less than the usual Elecraft stellar RX performance.
>
> My guess, and this is only a wild guess, is that maybe the option leads this space open to future improved roofing filters?  Or, maybe even leave it open to a 3rd party market supplied filter (although, I think this filter is particularly different from other typical 3rd party filters).
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
>
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Re: Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

Phil Wheeler-2
In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3
I'd not have the KX3 without that option. But
perhaps it would be just fine if not working CW.

Same with the K3: Some do buy it with only the
standard 2.7 KHz filter, and no CW filters.

Phil W7OX

On 4/10/14, 7:56 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:
> I have a curiosity question.  Why is the KXFL3 roofing filter an option on the KX3?  I mean, why is it not a built-in feature of the KX3?  First, I already own a KX3 with the KXFL3 filter so I am not asking this in order to choose to buy or not.  Caveat:  I am also a neophyte (philistine, ignorant, or troglodyte) in this sort of radio technology and still in learner mode.
>
> But, it seems to me that the KXFL3 roofing filter is almost required with a radio as nice as the KX3.  Without it, as I understand the function, any crowded band interval like a pileup or close-in CW signals and such would render a KX3 (without the roofing filter) with less than the usual Elecraft stellar RX performance.
>
> My guess, and this is only a wild guess, is that maybe the option leads this space open to future improved roofing filters?  Or, maybe even leave it open to a 3rd party market supplied filter (although, I think this filter is particularly different from other typical 3rd party filters).
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH

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Re: Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

Phil Hystad-3
In reply to this post by Jim Bennett
Jim,

I don't do a lot of contesting but often will reply to contesting stations if they are DX or if they are from an unusual place for me (e.g. Rhode Island).  But, with DX, and in particular when a DX station is popular such as the DXpeditions (e.g. TX6G) they will have a pileup (and, often operating split).  I operate CW on all of these kinds of contacts so filtering to me is indeed important.  So, without thinking of the price, I bought the filter for the KX3 in order to get the best they have to offer.

I have yet to chase any kind of DXCC or WAS award certificate.  I have no room on my walls for certificates so having such a thing means nothing to me as I know that I have worked all states for example (with the exception of Rhode Island but Rhode Island is smaller than some counties so I will pick that up if I decide to count counties).

phil


On Apr 10, 2014, at 8:48 AM, Jim Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Phil -
>
> I've had my KX3 since Christmas of last year. Also have a fairly well decked-out K3. My KX3 does NOT have the optional KXFL3 roofing filter. However, in the time that I've had the KX3 and been able to compare it's receive performance to that of the K3 - I have to say that I don't see any need (in my case) for the added expense. Granted, I don't do that much contesting, although I have dipped my toes into a couple here and there, as I was trying to pick off a few states to close out my 5BWAS. I've also used the KX3 in a number of fairly big pileups and the little rig has performed very well. It would be nice to have two of them, just to be able to compare having or not having the roofing filter. I know that you can "turn it on or off" in the menu but that might not be a valid way to compare.
>
> Anyway, I'm quite pleased with the receive performance of my KX3 w/o the filter.
>
> Jim / W6JHB
>
>
> On   Thursday, Apr 10, 2014, at  Thursday, 7:56 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:
>
>> I have a curiosity question.  Why is the KXFL3 roofing filter an option on the KX3?  I mean, why is it not a built-in feature of the KX3?  First, I already own a KX3 with the KXFL3 filter so I am not asking this in order to choose to buy or not.  Caveat:  I am also a neophyte (philistine, ignorant, or troglodyte) in this sort of radio technology and still in learner mode.
>>
>> But, it seems to me that the KXFL3 roofing filter is almost required with a radio as nice as the KX3.  Without it, as I understand the function, any crowded band interval like a pileup or close-in CW signals and such would render a KX3 (without the roofing filter) with less than the usual Elecraft stellar RX performance.
>>
>> My guess, and this is only a wild guess, is that maybe the option leads this space open to future improved roofing filters?  Or, maybe even leave it open to a 3rd party market supplied filter (although, I think this filter is particularly different from other typical 3rd party filters).
>>
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

Phil Hystad-3
In reply to this post by Phil Wheeler-2
Phil,

I concur -- in my second reply to Wayne, I truncated the first sentence (I think it was the first) and the result was not very meaningful.  I had originally written something like "...but then when I bought the KX3 I ignored the price as I really wanted the KX3".

I cut that out because I didn't want to let Wayne think that I would buy anything at any price -- well, maybe I would almost but I did really want the KX3 for portable ops.  Now, I am wondering if I should keep my KX1.  Oh, I will keep it but it is not being used anymore.

phil


On Apr 10, 2014, at 9:01 AM, Phil Wheeler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'd not have the KX3 without that option. But perhaps it would be just fine if not working CW.
>
> Same with the K3: Some do buy it with only the standard 2.7 KHz filter, and no CW filters.
>
> Phil W7OX
>
> On 4/10/14, 7:56 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:
>> I have a curiosity question.  Why is the KXFL3 roofing filter an option on the KX3?  I mean, why is it not a built-in feature of the KX3?  First, I already own a KX3 with the KXFL3 filter so I am not asking this in order to choose to buy or not.  Caveat:  I am also a neophyte (philistine, ignorant, or troglodyte) in this sort of radio technology and still in learner mode.
>>
>> But, it seems to me that the KXFL3 roofing filter is almost required with a radio as nice as the KX3.  Without it, as I understand the function, any crowded band interval like a pileup or close-in CW signals and such would render a KX3 (without the roofing filter) with less than the usual Elecraft stellar RX performance.
>>
>> My guess, and this is only a wild guess, is that maybe the option leads this space open to future improved roofing filters?  Or, maybe even leave it open to a 3rd party market supplied filter (although, I think this filter is particularly different from other typical 3rd party filters).
>>
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
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Re: Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

george fritkin
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
Matching 0.1% capacitors?  What kind of a design is this that requires such tolerances ?  This make maintenance almost impossible.
 
George, W6GF
On Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:31 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
Hi Phil,

The roofing filter module (KXFL3) is expensive for us to manufacture because of the extremely tight tolerances on the capacitors (0.1% in some cases). They have to be matched by hand.

We didn't want to pass this cost on to all KX3 users, since many of them don't require the roofing filters. Even without them, the KX3's receiver performance would fall into the top 6 or so radios as measured by Sherwood Engineering (http://www.sherweng.com/table.html).

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Apr 10, 2014, at 7:56 AM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have a curiosity question.  Why is the KXFL3 roofing filter an option on the KX3?  I mean, why is it not a built-in feature of the KX3?  First, I already own a KX3 with the KXFL3 filter so I am not asking this in order to choose to buy or not.  Caveat:  I am also a neophyte (philistine, ignorant, or troglodyte) in this sort of radio technology and still in learner mode.
>
> But, it seems to me that the KXFL3 roofing filter is almost required with a radio as nice as the KX3.  Without it, as I understand the function, any crowded band interval like a pileup or close-in CW signals and such would render a KX3 (without the roofing filter) with less than the usual Elecraft stellar RX performance.
>
> My guess, and this is only a wild guess, is that maybe the option leads this space open to future improved roofing filters?  Or, maybe even leave it open to a 3rd party market supplied filter (although, I think this filter is particularly different from other typical 3rd party filters).
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH



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Re: Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

wayne burdick
Administrator
Hi George,

Tight matching is required in the roofing filters because of their impact on the I and Q receive channels. This is not unique to Elecraft's application. By matching the gain and phase within the channels, we suppress image responses in hardware, simplifying the task of the DSP after the A-to-D converter.

Fortunately the capacitors come on SMD reels and have fairly tight tolerance within batches. So we sort them the same way we do crystals.

But yes, it would be difficult for a customer to repair their own KXFL3 board, should it involve the tight-tolerance parts. On the other hand, the board is extremely unlikely to fail, and it's a small removable module that can easily be replaced if necessary. I don't know of any cases of this yet.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Apr 11, 2014, at 9:26 AM, george fritkin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Matching 0.1% capacitors?  What kind of a design is this that requires such tolerances ?  This make maintenance almost impossible.
>  
> George, W6GF



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Re: Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ
Administrator
In reply to this post by george fritkin
Hi George,

This is a precision matched phase I-Q filter. Its a key component of the KX3s
excellent performance. No different than if you were ordering a precision
crystal as we use in the K3.

These parts are matched and selected here. We can supply matched sets if they
ever are needed. We have yet to see one fail. (The chance of failure of these
caps is miniscule.)

73,

Eric
elecraft.com

On 4/11/2014 9:26 AM, george fritkin wrote:

> Matching 0.1% capacitors?  What kind of a design is this that requires such tolerances ?  This make maintenance almost impossible.
>  
> George, W6GF
> On Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:31 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>    
> Hi Phil,
>
> The roofing filter module (KXFL3) is expensive for us to manufacture because of the extremely tight tolerances on the capacitors (0.1% in some cases). They have to be matched by hand.
>
> We didn't want to pass this cost on to all KX3 users, since many of them don't require the roofing filters. Even without them, the KX3's receiver performance would fall into the top 6 or so radios as measured by Sherwood Engineering (http://www.sherweng.com/table.html).
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> On Apr 10, 2014, at 7:56 AM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I have a curiosity question.  Why is the KXFL3 roofing filter an option on the KX3?  I mean, why is it not a built-in feature of the KX3?  First, I already own a KX3 with the KXFL3 filter so I am not asking this in order to choose to buy or not.  Caveat:  I am also a neophyte (philistine, ignorant, or troglodyte) in this sort of radio technology and still in learner mode.
>>
>> But, it seems to me that the KXFL3 roofing filter is almost required with a radio as nice as the KX3.  Without it, as I understand the function, any crowded band interval like a pileup or close-in CW signals and such would render a KX3 (without the roofing filter) with less than the usual Elecraft stellar RX performance.
>>
>> My guess, and this is only a wild guess, is that maybe the option leads this space open to future improved roofing filters?  Or, maybe even leave it open to a 3rd party market supplied filter (although, I think this filter is particularly different from other typical 3rd party filters).
>>
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
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Re: Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

Rick Tavan N6XI
In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3
If all of your operating is casual chatting, on uncrowded bands, with poor
antennas, then the KXFL3 won't do much at all for you. Its primary function
is to prevent DSP overload from very strong, adjacent signals and you won't
experience that much if at all. If much of your operating is serious DXing
or contesting on crowded bands with good antennas and active nearby
neighbor stations, you will often encounter those strong, close-in signals
and the KXFL3 will help a lot. Somewhere between those extremes of strength
and crowding is the threshold. I got the filter even though it is often
unnecessary.

/Rick N6XI


On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 7:56 AM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have a curiosity question.  Why is the KXFL3 roofing filter an option on
> the KX3?  I mean, why is it not a built-in feature of the KX3?  First, I
> already own a KX3 with the KXFL3 filter so I am not asking this in order to
> choose to buy or not.  Caveat:  I am also a neophyte (philistine, ignorant,
> or troglodyte) in this sort of radio technology and still in learner mode.
>
> But, it seems to me that the KXFL3 roofing filter is almost required with
> a radio as nice as the KX3.  Without it, as I understand the function, any
> crowded band interval like a pileup or close-in CW signals and such would
> render a KX3 (without the roofing filter) with less than the usual Elecraft
> stellar RX performance.
>
> My guess, and this is only a wild guess, is that maybe the option leads
> this space open to future improved roofing filters?  Or, maybe even leave
> it open to a 3rd party market supplied filter (although, I think this
> filter is particularly different from other typical 3rd party filters).
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
>
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>



--
Rick Tavan N6XI
Truckee, CA
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Fwd: Re: Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

Uwe Hermanns
...I have a great problem with AM-Breaktrough and I have to switch to 8kHz
ZF-Shift. So most of my operation time my KXFL3 is not in use :-(

73 de Uwe, DL4AC
 ---------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht ----------
Von: "Rick Tavan N6XI" <[hidden email]>
Datum: 12.04.2014 01:04
Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on
KX3 ?
An: "Phil Hystad" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft List" <[hidden email]>

If all of your operating is casual chatting, on uncrowded bands, with poor
antennas, then the KXFL3 won't do much at all for you. Its primary function
is to prevent DSP overload from very strong, adjacent signals and you won't
experience that much if at all. If much of your operating is serious DXing
or contesting on crowded bands with good antennas and active nearby
neighbor stations, you will often encounter those strong, close-in signals
and the KXFL3 will help a lot. Somewhere between those extremes of strength
and crowding is the threshold. I got the filter even though it is often
unnecessary.

/Rick N6XI


On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 7:56 AM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have a curiosity question.  Why is the KXFL3 roofing filter an option on
> the KX3?  I mean, why is it not a built-in feature of the KX3?  First, I
> already own a KX3 with the KXFL3 filter so I am not asking this in order
to
> choose to buy or not.  Caveat:  I am also a neophyte (philistine,
ignorant,
> or troglodyte) in this sort of radio technology and still in learner mode.
>
> But, it seems to me that the KXFL3 roofing filter is almost required with
> a radio as nice as the KX3.  Without it, as I understand the function, any
> crowded band interval like a pileup or close-in CW signals and such would
> render a KX3 (without the roofing filter) with less than the usual
Elecraft

> stellar RX performance.
>
> My guess, and this is only a wild guess, is that maybe the option leads
> this space open to future improved roofing filters?  Or, maybe even leave
> it open to a 3rd party market supplied filter (although, I think this
> filter is particularly different from other typical 3rd party filters).
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>



--
Rick Tavan N6XI
Truckee, CA
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Re: Fwd: Re: Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on KX3 ?

Phil Wheeler-2
Uwe, is your problem due to MW stations below 160
m or shortwave broadcasting stations?

Phil W7OX

On 4/11/14, 11:38 PM, Uwe Hermanns wrote:

> ...I have a great problem with AM-Breaktrough and I have to switch to 8kHz
> ZF-Shift. So most of my operation time my KXFL3 is not in use :-(
>
> 73 de Uwe, DL4AC
>   ---------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht ----------
> Von: "Rick Tavan N6XI" <[hidden email]>
> Datum: 12.04.2014 01:04
> Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] Curious -- why is KXFL3 roofing filter an option on
> KX3 ?
> An: "Phil Hystad" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Elecraft List" <[hidden email]>
>
> If all of your operating is casual chatting, on uncrowded bands, with poor
> antennas, then the KXFL3 won't do much at all for you. Its primary function
> is to prevent DSP overload from very strong, adjacent signals and you won't
> experience that much if at all. If much of your operating is serious DXing
> or contesting on crowded bands with good antennas and active nearby
> neighbor stations, you will often encounter those strong, close-in signals
> and the KXFL3 will help a lot. Somewhere between those extremes of strength
> and crowding is the threshold. I got the filter even though it is often
> unnecessary.
>
> /Rick N6XI

______________________________________________________________
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