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Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

David Gilbert


My comments actually had nothing to do with Elecraft.  I never said (or even implied) that Elecraft was slow or going about this wrong.  If I were them, I'd make sure that the P3 was as close to perfect as I could before I released it, and I'd preview the heck out of it to get as mich feedback as I could.  It's MUCH easier to address design/manufacturing issues when the only hardware to deal with are prototypes.  And in this case, I don't think the demand is going to suffer due to the wait.

I also think "customer-sourced capitalization" is a great idea for Elecraft and their customers, but that isn't at all what we're talking about here ... not yet, anyway.  Putting down a deposit on a piece of equipment with a reasonably firm feature list and published specs is a totally different thing than blindly ordering something before you know what it actually does.  The former makes good sense to me, the latter does not.

73,
Dave   AB7E



------Original Mail------
From: "Guy Olinger K2AV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Dave - AB7E" <[hidden email]>,
    <[hidden email]>,
    <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:42:29 -0500
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 1:29 AM, Dave - AB7E <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Are the feature list and specifications now firm?  And if so, what are they?  I would have thought that anyone contemplating spending $700 for any box, even with the Elecraft name on it, would want to know what it does before sending off the check.
>

I should note that putting a prototype, and then later a working early
model in front of the public for comment at some convention-style
event, is RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT.  Early ham feedback at hamfests is
essential, and it too is R&D.

It's only the customers (and pent up demand) that are mistakenly
insisting that they are slow.  You want the kind of innovation and
service they are known for, you have to wait.  It's not a flaw or
laziness, or some kind of commie plot to rob us of our toys.  It's
careful business.  Good stuff at good prices is the hardest thing to
do. What was that thing, you can have two of the three, quick,
quality, low price?  (Personally, I'm betting quality AND low price is
at the root of the amp thing, I'll wait.)

I wonder if anyone has noticed businesses going down for getting even
close to the edge these days?  Hello?  The early plunk for the K3 was
a VOLUNTARY early alternative financing scheme.  Lot better than them
being leveraged by a bank that pulls the plug on them for completely
unrelated reasons.  Any Rip Van Winkle types please check the
financials for the last couple of years for historical information and
note that Ronald Reagan is not president any more.

Personally, I want Elecraft around for a while.  Conservative business
practices with no screeching tires at cliff's edge is just super
peachy fine by me. There is no TARP fund bailout for Elecraft. They go
down, we're back to getting our stuff from Yakencom and stuck with
what they decide for us, whether we like it or not.

And some folks WOULD plunk now for unfirm features (and there's no big
gorilla around MAKING anyone plunk -- it's a CHOICE one makes), with
the personal SELF-assurance that if it isn't what they want, they can
come here and sell it on the reflector, fast.

73, Guy.

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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

David Gilbert
In reply to this post by Julian, G4ILO

So instead there are a lot of people who want to spend three times as much money on a small screen just to show them a graphical display of band activity??  Apparently so ...

The advantage, in my opinion, of a more universal piece of SDR hardware (like LP-Pan or SDR-IQ) is EXACTLY that it would be able to run other software, either current like PowerSDR or CW Skimmer, or other applications that I am firmly convinced will be available in the future for things like propagation analysis, band activity analysis, quantifying signal distortion on received signals, etc.  In my opinion, the P3 could have easily been designed to do offer that capability as well the other more dedicated stuff it does, but for some reason it wasn't.

73,
Dave   AB7E


------Original Mail------
From: "Julian, G4ILO" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:11:34 -0800 PST
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation



But I'm equally sure
there are a lot of people who don't want the huge ugly screen hogging
resource hogging PowerSDR application just to show them a graphical display
of band activity.

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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Bob - W0GI
In reply to this post by Dave Quick - KØEKL-2
Considering that the P3 is a self-contained unit, $700 seems to be a reasonable price. There is a lot more to it, then just an LP-Pan and soundcard.  

For someone that doesn't want to deal with computer interfacing, it is great. At the same time, it has limitations.  After using CW Skimmer, I don't know how I lived without it. PowerSDR is also a lot of fun.

The best of both worlds would be a P3 with a usb port where the PC saw the P3 as a soundcard. Then you could feed PowerSDR and everything else on the PC, or use the P3 by itself.

As it stands, I really don't need a P3, but if I worked a lot of portable, I would want one.

I think they will sell quite a few P3s.





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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

The Smiths
In reply to this post by Phil Hystad

I would beg to differ.  As a past owner of an FT-2000d with the DMU-2000 "pan adapter" I have to say 1 - that pan adapter was FAR MORE than what Elecraft has described the P3 would do.  It was a logging system, it was a rotor control with world map, it was an AF scope, it was also a pan adapter among other things. Plus, you could use it on ANY size screen.

Sure, there were features that needed serious refinement.. but when I purchased mine BRAND NEW it was still only $650 "on sale".  Of course that "sale" never seemed to end, but when it did go away for a little bit, the price never went higher than 700 or 775 dollars.

 

In my personal opinion, for Elecraft to charge more than $700 (if that) for a pan adapter that does only one or at best 2 functions is outrageous.  I would have thought that $500 to $650 would be the TOP number they would be targeting.

I don't know about you, but I'm not made out of money, and to even consider plunking down $1000 for a simple pan adapter is an absolute JOKE.

 

Yes, I will most likely purchase the P3 pan adapter, but I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that Elecraft understands that even if I have to purchase a $80-$150 LCD monitor, ALL of their competition is priced below that ridiculous mark others have talked about.

 
LP-PAN kit = $176.75USD
LP-PAN assembled = $227.25USD

Software: FREE

1) Manufacturer: YAESU
Item : DMU-2000
Description : DATA MANAGEMENT UNIT FT-2000/950/5000 SERIES
$869.95
Coupon: $80.00
YOUR HRO PRICE $789.95

 

Gigaparts:










YAESU DMU-2000
Data Management Unit for FT-2000
 







Discounts included in price: $80.00 instant rebate expires 03/31/2010.









 
Regular:
 
$849.00
 

 
Discounts:
 
-$80.00
 

 



   

 
Net Price:
 
$769.00



And on and on and on.... Like I said, $500 to $650 is a FAIR price.  $700 is PUSHING it.  Just my opinion, you don't need to agree with it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 08:39:50 -0800
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation
>
> I think the estimated $700 price is cheap. I was thinking it would be
> closer to $1000. There is a similar product from Yaesu, the DMU-2000
> with a list price of $1400 and it does not even include the monitor which
> you must supply yourself. I think the street price is possibly under $1000
> though.
>
> Now, we do not know how close or far apart the DMU-2000 is from the
> P3 but it does set at least one price point. Another price point is the
> LP-PAN and sound-card plus computer configuration. If you buy an
> external USB sound card then you are starting to get closer to the ball
> park area of the $700 (of course, depending on all kinds of factors that
> are too variable to make any close comparison). I bet though that many
> hams would gladly pay several hundred dollars more for the P3 to avoid
> the hassle of doing up their own solution using the LP-PAN approach.
>
> About Microsoft selling Windows 7 at a profit for 50 cents! Your joking
> of course. I have a number of good friends on the Microsoft Windows
> 7 product team (I live about 4 miles from the Microsoft campus) and
> they would beg to differ with you. They have, depending on how you
> measure it which is not easy, a multi-billion dollar development effort
> that they need to recapture by selling Windows 7. Or, look at it another
> way, their first several million copies of Windows 7 are still being sold
> at a huge loss. You can actually read their shareholders reports and
> find out some of the cost for developing Windows 7.
>
> As for me, I will buy the P3. Cost? It is not so high that it would be
> totally unreasonable I am betting.
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
>
> On Feb 13, 2010, at 8:23 AM, KM4VX wrote:
>
> >
> > What drives the price of a new product more than anything is marketing.
> > Microsoft could sell Windows 7 at profit for 50 cents but charges $149.00.
> > The P-3 price is being defined here on the reflector by those of us who are
> > so enthusiastic about Elecraft; hams may be called "cheap" but have
> > considerable discretionary spending available. The P-3 could sell for a few
> > hundred dollars at profit, similar to other panadapters. Instead, we are
> > talking about more than double that price. Companies recover their R&D
> > investments over time, and the higher the selling price the shorter the R&D
> > investment recovery period. How about a breather here? The $700 price being
> > tossed around is a bit absurd in my view. Yeah, many of us can and will pay
> > it, but its okay to talk about 3-400 dollars and Elecraft would do just
> > fine. Offer the company double their profitable selling price and they are
> > delighted to take it. Why not? Mail a check now? If the price is determined
> > by what we are willing to pay, consider paying less. It is okay to pay less
> > guys. 73. Ron
> > --
> > View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Elecraft-P3-panadapter-at-the-Orlando-Hamcation-tp4564111p4566779.html
> > Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
     
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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

S Sacco
By way of comparison, $700 would buy the following PC and monitor at Costco:

Processor & Memory:

Intel® Core 2 Quad Processor Q8300 (2.5GHz)
4MB L2 cache
1333MHz Front Side Bus
6GB DDR3 1066MHz SDRAM memory (4 Dimms)

Drives:

640GB (7,200RPM) SATA 3Gb/s hard drive
LightScribe 16x max DVD±R/RW drive

Graphics & Video:

Integrated Intel X4500 Graphics
HP 2009m Wide Movado LCD Monitor

Communications:

Integrated 10/100/1000 Ethernet LAN

Audio:

Integrated 7.1 channel capable sound w/ front audio ports

Keyboard & Mouse:

Amalthea wired USB keyboard
Portia wired USB mouse

Expandability (Total Slots):

Total memory slots: 4 DIMMS
1x PCIe x16
3x PCIe x1

Ports:

Front headphone and mic ports
6 x USB 2.0 ports (2 Front, 4 Back)

Operating System:

Microsoft® Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit)

Additional Software:

Microsoft® Works 9.0

Additional Information:

CPU Dimensions: 16.85" L x 6.97" W x 15.32" H
Power Supply: 300W

 Just something to think about.  Personally, I feel $700 is too much.

73,
Steve
NN4X
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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Vic K2VCO
In reply to this post by KM4VX
On 2/13/10 8:23 AM, KM4VX wrote:
>
>  The P-3 could sell for a few
> hundred dollars at profit, similar to other panadapters. Instead, we are
> talking about more than double that price. Companies recover their R&D
> investments over time, and the higher the selling price the shorter the R&D
> investment recovery period. How about a breather here? The $700 price being
> tossed around is a bit absurd in my view.

Keep in mind that the P3 is completely standalone -- you don't need to
add a computer or a display as you do with the other options. You may or
may not think that's a good thing, but it accounts for the price difference.

I've talked to the Elecraft people about pricing on occasion and they
very definitely do NOT charge what the market will bear, but rather base
their prices on a reasonable markup over the cost.
--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Joe Subich, W4TV-4
In reply to this post by Jeff kb2m


>  Don't forget that the LP Pan allows you to run the SDR-IF
> software suite.

Why would you brag about bringing the worst part of the
Flex-radio to the K3?  PowerSDR is the worst interface
in the world for a radio ... the FFT delays make the
K3 monitor sound instantaneous.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jeff KB2M
> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:56 AM
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando
> Hamcation
>
>
>  Don't forget that the LP Pan allows you to run the SDR-IF
> software suite. To me it's like having another radio(with
> band stacking registers!) to compare my K3 to. When I have my
> K3 on, I do all the tuning around with SDF-IF. My K3's knobs
> are hardly ever used....
>
> 73 Jeff kb2m
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Phil Hystad
> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:40 AM
> To: KM4VX
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando
> Hamcation
>
> Another price point is the LP-PAN and sound-card plus
> computer configuration
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Joe Subich, W4TV-4
In reply to this post by The Smiths


> LP-PAN kit = $176.75USD
> LP-PAN assembled = $227.25USD

LP-Pan is not "complete" ... it also requires a high end soundcard,
computer and monitor to provide up to 180 KHz span.  The P3 needs
no additional hardware to provide 200 KHz span.  

The Yaesu DMU-2000 only puts a graphical interface on the rotor
control that is already present in the FT-2000 ... not a usable
control unless you happen to be using a Yaesu rotor with the SDA
interface.  

The P3 is closest to the SDR-IQ but includes a larger case (more
$$), display and additional processor for control.  I'd say the
P3's price is justified in comparison to the $525 (plus computer)
list price of the SDR-IQ.  

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of The Smiths
> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 3:44 PM
> To: [hidden email]; Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando
> Hamcation
>
>
>
> I would beg to differ.  As a past owner of an FT-2000d with
> the DMU-2000 "pan adapter" I have to say 1 - that pan adapter
> was FAR MORE than what Elecraft has described the P3 would
> do.  It was a logging system, it was a rotor control with
> world map, it was an AF scope, it was also a pan adapter
> among other things. Plus, you could use it on ANY size screen.
>
> Sure, there were features that needed serious refinement..
> but when I purchased mine BRAND NEW it was still only $650
> "on sale".  Of course that "sale" never seemed to end, but
> when it did go away for a little bit, the price never went
> higher than 700 or 775 dollars.
>
>  
>
> In my personal opinion, for Elecraft to charge more than $700
> (if that) for a pan adapter that does only one or at best 2
> functions is outrageous.  I would have thought that $500 to
> $650 would be the TOP number they would be targeting.
>
> I don't know about you, but I'm not made out of money, and to
> even consider plunking down $1000 for a simple pan adapter is
> an absolute JOKE.
>
>  
>
> Yes, I will most likely purchase the P3 pan adapter, but I'll
> be keeping my fingers crossed that Elecraft understands that
> even if I have to purchase a $80-$150 LCD monitor, ALL of
> their competition is priced below that ridiculous mark others
> have talked about.
>
>  
> LP-PAN kit = $176.75USD
> LP-PAN assembled = $227.25USD
>
> Software: FREE
>
> 1) Manufacturer: YAESU
> Item : DMU-2000
> Description : DATA MANAGEMENT UNIT FT-2000/950/5000 SERIES
> $869.95
> Coupon: $80.00
> YOUR HRO PRICE $789.95
>
>  
>
> Gigaparts:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> YAESU DMU-2000
> Data Management Unit for FT-2000
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Discounts included in price: $80.00 instant rebate expires
> 03/31/2010.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
> Regular:
>  
> $849.00
>  
>
>  
> Discounts:
>  
> -$80.00
>  
>
>  
>
>
>
>    
>
>  
> Net Price:
>  
> $769.00
>
>
>
> And on and on and on.... Like I said, $500 to $650 is a FAIR
> price.  $700 is PUSHING it.  Just my opinion, you don't need
> to agree with it.
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
> > From: [hidden email]
> > Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 08:39:50 -0800
> > To: [hidden email]
> > CC: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando
> > Hamcation
> >
> > I think the estimated $700 price is cheap. I was thinking
> it would be
> > closer to $1000. There is a similar product from Yaesu, the DMU-2000
> > with a list price of $1400 and it does not even include the
> monitor which
> > you must supply yourself. I think the street price is
> possibly under $1000
> > though.
> >
> > Now, we do not know how close or far apart the DMU-2000 is from the
> > P3 but it does set at least one price point. Another price
> point is the
> > LP-PAN and sound-card plus computer configuration. If you buy an
> > external USB sound card then you are starting to get closer
> to the ball
> > park area of the $700 (of course, depending on all kinds of
> factors that
> > are too variable to make any close comparison). I bet
> though that many
> > hams would gladly pay several hundred dollars more for the
> P3 to avoid
> > the hassle of doing up their own solution using the LP-PAN approach.
> >
> > About Microsoft selling Windows 7 at a profit for 50 cents! Your
> > joking of course. I have a number of good friends on the Microsoft
> > Windows 7 product team (I live about 4 miles from the Microsoft
> > campus) and they would beg to differ with you. They have,
> depending on
> > how you measure it which is not easy, a multi-billion dollar
> > development effort that they need to recapture by selling
> Windows 7.
> > Or, look at it another way, their first several million copies of
> > Windows 7 are still being sold at a huge loss. You can
> actually read
> > their shareholders reports and find out some of the cost for
> > developing Windows 7.
> >
> > As for me, I will buy the P3. Cost? It is not so high that
> it would be
> > totally unreasonable I am betting.
> >
> > 73, phil, K7PEH
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 13, 2010, at 8:23 AM, KM4VX wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > What drives the price of a new product more than anything is
> > > marketing. Microsoft could sell Windows 7 at profit for
> 50 cents but
> > > charges $149.00. The P-3 price is being defined here on the
> > > reflector by those of us who are so enthusiastic about Elecraft;
> > > hams may be called "cheap" but have considerable discretionary
> > > spending available. The P-3 could sell for a few hundred
> dollars at
> > > profit, similar to other panadapters. Instead, we are
> talking about
> > > more than double that price. Companies recover their R&D
> investments
> > > over time, and the higher the selling price the shorter the R&D
> > > investment recovery period. How about a breather here? The $700
> > > price being tossed around is a bit absurd in my view.
> Yeah, many of
> > > us can and will pay it, but its okay to talk about 3-400
> dollars and
> > > Elecraft would do just fine. Offer the company double their
> > > profitable selling price and they are delighted to take
> it. Why not?
> > > Mail a check now? If the price is determined by what we
> are willing
> > > to pay, consider paying less. It is okay to pay less guys. 73. Ron
> > > --
> > > View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/Elecraft-P3-panadapter-at-the-Orlando-Ham
cation-tp4564111p4566779.html

> > Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
     
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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Julian, G4ILO
In reply to this post by David Gilbert
Dave - AB7E wrote
The advantage, in my opinion, of a more universal piece of SDR hardware (like LP-Pan or SDR-IQ) is EXACTLY that it would be able to run other software, either current like PowerSDR or CW Skimmer, or other applications that I am firmly convinced will be available in the future for things like propagation analysis, band activity analysis, quantifying signal distortion on received signals, etc.  In my opinion, the P3 could have easily been designed to do offer that capability as well the other more dedicated stuff it does, but for some reason it wasn't.
But there is no real advantage in Elecraft bringing out a "me too" version of the LP-Pan or SDR-IQ. By making the P3 a standalone product they are providing an alternative that is likely to be appealing for the same reasons people chose a K3 over a Flex Radio.

I do agree it could be useful to bring out the I/Q signals from the panadapter so they could be used by external software but for all any of us knows it may have that capability. If it doesn't then now is the opportunity to let Elecraft know that it should have it.
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Julian, G4ILO
In reply to this post by The Smiths
The Smiths wrote
In my personal opinion, for Elecraft to charge more than $700 (if that) for a pan adapter that does only one or at best 2 functions is outrageous.  I would have thought that $500 to $650 would be the TOP number they would be targeting.

Yes, I will most likely purchase the P3 pan adapter
So $50 is the difference between acceptable and outrageous? Anyone who thinks it is too expensive doesn't have to buy it. No doubt there will be plenty of used LP-PANs for sale when the P3 actually comes out.

As far as I am concerned all ham radio purchases are luxuries anyway so just like buying my K3 it's only a question of do I want it and can I afford it. If I do and I can then I'll buy it, if I don't or I can't then I won't. I'll save the value comparisons for things I *have* to buy whether I want to or not like a new fridge or washing machine.
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

The Smiths

Fair enough, you make a good point, $50 is a little close.. So I would say that $525 to $600 should be the top number.  I'll take the extra $100 you want to over pay and use it to help buy me another Begali or GHD Key!  :)

(let's not even get into those numbers!)
 

> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 14:50:15 -0800
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation
>
>
>
> The Smiths wrote:
> >
> > In my personal opinion, for Elecraft to charge more than $700 (if that)
> > for a pan adapter that does only one or at best 2 functions is outrageous.
> > I would have thought that $500 to $650 would be the TOP number they would
> > be targeting.
> >
> > Yes, I will most likely purchase the P3 pan adapter
> >
> So $50 is the difference between acceptable and outrageous? Anyone who
> thinks it is too expensive doesn't have to buy it. No doubt there will be
> plenty of used LP-PANs for sale when the P3 actually comes out.
>
> As far as I am concerned all ham radio purchases are luxuries anyway so just
> like buying my K3 it's only a question of do I want it and can I afford it.
> If I do and I can then I'll buy it, if I don't or I can't then I won't. I'll
> save the value comparisons for things I *have* to buy whether I want to or
> not like a new fridge or washing machine.
>
> -----
> Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222.
> * G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
> * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
> * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Elecraft-P3-panadapter-at-the-Orlando-Hamcation-tp4564111p4568146.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

The Smiths
In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO

I understand that there is a need for a reasonable mark up, and I understand that there's also a need to pay for the R&D.  However, some times you have to decide if your product is worth producing based on the amount of sales that it will generate.  And not by way of how can you pay all of your R&D back in a matter of the most minimal time.  Not thinking about how many of these units they will potentially sell as time progresses.

If this is all that the P3 is about, than they need to re-consider selling it.  Or anything that they make and sell for a price that seems to be $100 to $175 off market. (This assuming that the price IS going to be $700 plus)
I would rather know that I can buy a VERY nice home computer, with monitor, and then install the FREE software with a $250 interface box and then be able to not only run the Pan adapter program, but all of my accounting, my Internet browsing and thousands of other things on that same very computer for the same price as a single operation device.

Yes, the stand alone box is very nice indeed, but it's not as if I'm going to be saving anything that a nice laptop computer can't give me in the same amount of space.  Even if I go Portable, with a laptop I don't have to worry about powering a second device, nor do I have to worry about the logging, because it's already incorporated in the same device, along with everything that HRD  or any other control software can do with the K3 also...

I know that none of my posts are going to change the price of the P3 right before it's released.  That's obvious by the same way it appears they didn't listen to some of us when we requested a Mouse, Keyboard and perhaps even VGA output on the box as well.  But someone has to be outspoken and say something about the pricing on this device.  This isn't a personal attack on anyone, or the company.  This is just a way of expressing my opinion based on other Pan adapters that I have purchased in the past.

 

> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 13:39:41 -0800
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation
>
> On 2/13/10 8:23 AM, KM4VX wrote:
> >
> > The P-3 could sell for a few
> > hundred dollars at profit, similar to other panadapters. Instead, we are
> > talking about more than double that price. Companies recover their R&D
> > investments over time, and the higher the selling price the shorter the R&D
> > investment recovery period. How about a breather here? The $700 price being
> > tossed around is a bit absurd in my view.
>
> Keep in mind that the P3 is completely standalone -- you don't need to
> add a computer or a display as you do with the other options. You may or
> may not think that's a good thing, but it accounts for the price difference.
>
> I've talked to the Elecraft people about pricing on occasion and they
> very definitely do NOT charge what the market will bear, but rather base
> their prices on a reasonable markup over the cost.
> --
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Craig Smith
There are indeed less expensive ways to display the frequency spectrum on
your PC screen, including the LP-pan which has received well-deserved praise
and acceptance.  But many people prefer a self-contained solution, which
will be provided by the P3.  What is an acceptable price for this is a very
individual judgment.  What has not been pointed out in the recent flurry of
discussion, however, is that the P3 will be more than just a panadapter
display.  It will provide some additional functions for the K3 which will
improve the user ergonomics.  Neither I nor any of us outsiders know the
extent of this added functionality, but no doubt extra labeled function
macro keys at a minimum.  I'm inclined to place an order at the official
announcement date and then evaluate the new features and user comments prior
to the ship date.  I expect that the P3 will be a continuously evolving
product just like the K3 is.  

73  Craig  AC0DS




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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

S Sacco
One interesting feature Wayne showed was the ability to line up
vertical line with a spot on the display, tap the knob (the lower
right hand one), and it would QSY the rig there.

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 7:24 PM, Craig D. Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There are indeed less expensive ways to display the frequency spectrum on
> your PC screen, including the LP-pan which has received well-deserved praise
> and acceptance.  But many people prefer a self-contained solution, which
> will be provided by the P3.  What is an acceptable price for this is a very
> individual judgment.  What has not been pointed out in the recent flurry of
> discussion, however, is that the P3 will be more than just a panadapter
> display.  It will provide some additional functions for the K3 which will
> improve the user ergonomics.  Neither I nor any of us outsiders know the
> extent of this added functionality, but no doubt extra labeled function
> macro keys at a minimum.  I'm inclined to place an order at the official
> announcement date and then evaluate the new features and user comments prior
> to the ship date.  I expect that the P3 will be a continuously evolving
> product just like the K3 is.
>
> 73  Craig  AC0DS
>
>
>
>
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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Brett Howard
In reply to this post by S Sacco
All of that equipment was made by teams of Chinese people who are paid
very poorly and aren't treated all that well either.  The P3 is a labor
of love put together by a select few engineers.  Its probably built by
people in California with health coverage, life insurance, and a decent
living wage...

Not to mention that Elecraft provides excellent support beyond that of
the sale!  You're not going to get that from the company that made that
computer.  You're not going to be informed of hardware modifications and
upgrades that will improve your system with well done step by step
documentation written up on how to perform the mods.  Not to mention
that they'll even kit the parts to you if you can't find them on your
own.  You get more than just the hardware for your 700 bucks!

Just something to think about!  Personally I see it as a little high but
still yet very fair!

~Brett (KC7OTG)

On Sat, 2010-02-13 at 16:00 -0500, S Sacco wrote:

> By way of comparison, $700 would buy the following PC and monitor at Costco:
>
> Processor & Memory:
>
> Intel® Core 2 Quad Processor Q8300 (2.5GHz)
> 4MB L2 cache
> 1333MHz Front Side Bus
> 6GB DDR3 1066MHz SDRAM memory (4 Dimms)
>
> Drives:
>
> 640GB (7,200RPM) SATA 3Gb/s hard drive
> LightScribe 16x max DVD±R/RW drive
>
> Graphics & Video:
>
> Integrated Intel X4500 Graphics
> HP 2009m Wide Movado LCD Monitor
>
> Communications:
>
> Integrated 10/100/1000 Ethernet LAN
>
> Audio:
>
> Integrated 7.1 channel capable sound w/ front audio ports
>
> Keyboard & Mouse:
>
> Amalthea wired USB keyboard
> Portia wired USB mouse
>
> Expandability (Total Slots):
>
> Total memory slots: 4 DIMMS
> 1x PCIe x16
> 3x PCIe x1
>
> Ports:
>
> Front headphone and mic ports
> 6 x USB 2.0 ports (2 Front, 4 Back)
>
> Operating System:
>
> Microsoft® Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit)
>
> Additional Software:
>
> Microsoft® Works 9.0
>
> Additional Information:
>
> CPU Dimensions: 16.85" L x 6.97" W x 15.32" H
> Power Supply: 300W
>
>  Just something to think about.  Personally, I feel $700 is too much.
>
> 73,
> Steve
> NN4X
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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Brett Howard
In reply to this post by Julian, G4ILO
I also would like to see the config menu blow out to the P3 if you have
it...

So you open the config menu an then you get to see all the parameters
and their current values displayed over on the larger LCD.  Then you can
scroll to the one you want to change and turn the other knob to change
its value.  

But it would be nice to get a snapshot of things all at once rather than
individually scrolling through them one by one.

~Brett (KC7OTG)

On Sat, 2010-02-13 at 09:11 -0800, Julian, G4ILO wrote:

>
> Jeff kb2m wrote:
> >
> >  Don't forget that the LP Pan allows you to run the SDR-IF software suite.
> > To me it's like having another radio(with band stacking registers!) to
> > compare my K3 to. When I have my K3 on, I do all the tuning around with
> > SDF-IF. My K3's knobs are hardly ever used....
> >
> >
> If you want an SDR then I'm sure that's the way to go. But I'm equally sure
> there are a lot of people who don't want the huge ugly screen hogging
> resource hogging PowerSDR application just to show them a graphical display
> of band activity. Many of those folks probably have the second receiver
> already. If a standalone panadaptor is what you want, LP-Pan isn't it.
>
> I'm wondering what extra functionality Elecraft could be building in to the
> P3. I see it can do a waterfall display so I'm wondering whether it has any
> features to allow digimode operation without a computer, such as Icom has in
> its latest rigs. Perhaps it could use some of the screen to display more of
> the decoded text than you can see on the K3 display? Perhaps you can plug a
> keyboard in to directly enter text? The K3 itself already has support for
> that functionality, and the P3 can access it through the serial port.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> -----
> Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
> * G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
> * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
> * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
>


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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Brett Howard
In reply to this post by Bob - W0GI
It wouldn't be inconceivable that the CW Skimmer functionality could be
implemented into the P3.  They already have CW decode in the K3...  All
they have do to is detect the signals and feed them into the same
algorithm.  Then if you want just detect whats after the "de"'s and
display calls only if you want..

~Brett

On Sat, 2010-02-13 at 11:15 -0800, Bob - W0GI wrote:

> Considering that the P3 is a self-contained unit, $700 seems to be a
> reasonable price. There is a lot more to it, then just an LP-Pan and
> soundcard.  
>
> For someone that doesn't want to deal with computer interfacing, it is
> great. At the same time, it has limitations.  After using CW Skimmer, I
> don't know how I lived without it. PowerSDR is also a lot of fun.
>
> The best of both worlds would be a P3 with a usb port where the PC saw the
> P3 as a soundcard. Then you could feed PowerSDR and everything else on the
> PC, or use the P3 by itself.
>
> As it stands, I really don't need a P3, but if I worked a lot of portable, I
> would want one.
>
> I think they will sell quite a few P3s.
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

KM4VX
In reply to this post by Dave Quick - KØEKL-2
The P3 looks and appears to act much like the excellent screen which is integrated into my IC 756 PRO 3. Since we like the K3 so much Elecraft decided to compete with a separate panadapter like the P3,  rather than a K4. I think the LP-PAN  kit for $175.00, with free software connected to a computer that anyone who wants a panadapter has anyway,  represents a much better  investment for me. I can run all sorts of software with the LP-PAN.  The P3 is just the scope addition to the 756 in its own box. I don't think the  P3 market is there except as we are now marketing it. This is a sophisticated and tech savvy group; maybe just too loose with its cash  Of course I will be proven wrong, which is okay because I wish the company all the best.
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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Brett Howard
In reply to this post by S Sacco
They would have refunded your money if you wanted to back out you
weren't sucked into anything.

~Brett


On Sat, 2010-02-13 at 11:08 -0500, S Sacco wrote:

> Guy -
>
> Please don't forget that Elecraft sucked in quite a few of us on the K3 by
> promising wildly optimistic delivery dates.  I consider that to be a highly
> questionable business practice.
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 1:29 AM, Dave - AB7E <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Are the feature list and specifications now firm?  And if so, what are
> > they?  I would have thought that anyone contemplating spending $700 for any
> > box, even with the Elecraft name on it, would want to know what it does
> > before sending off the check.
> > >
> >
> > I should note that putting a prototype, and then later a working early
> > model in front of the public for comment at some convention-style
> > event, is RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT.  Early ham feedback at hamfests is
> > essential, and it too is R&D.
> >
> > It's only the customers (and pent up demand) that are mistakenly
> > insisting that they are slow.  You want the kind of innovation and
> > service they are known for, you have to wait.  It's not a flaw or
> > laziness, or some kind of commie plot to rob us of our toys.  It's
> > careful business.  Good stuff at good prices is the hardest thing to
> > do. What was that thing, you can have two of the three, quick,
> > quality, low price?  (Personally, I'm betting quality AND low price is
> > at the root of the amp thing, I'll wait.)
> >
> > I wonder if anyone has noticed businesses going down for getting even
> > close to the edge these days?  Hello?  The early plunk for the K3 was
> > a VOLUNTARY early alternative financing scheme.  Lot better than them
> > being leveraged by a bank that pulls the plug on them for completely
> > unrelated reasons.  Any Rip Van Winkle types please check the
> > financials for the last couple of years for historical information and
> > note that Ronald Reagan is not president any more.
> >
> > Personally, I want Elecraft around for a while.  Conservative business
> > practices with no screeching tires at cliff's edge is just super
> > peachy fine by me. There is no TARP fund bailout for Elecraft. They go
> > down, we're back to getting our stuff from Yakencom and stuck with
> > what they decide for us, whether we like it or not.
> >
> > And some folks WOULD plunk now for unfirm features (and there's no big
> > gorilla around MAKING anyone plunk -- it's a CHOICE one makes), with
> > the personal SELF-assurance that if it isn't what they want, they can
> > come here and sell it on the reflector, fast.
> >
> > 73, Guy.
> > ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Elecraft P3 panadapter at the Orlando Hamcation

Brett Howard
In reply to this post by Dave Quick - KØEKL-2
I'm waiting for someone to take a VIDEO so that we can see the refresh
rate of the thing....  But from the sounds of it it sounds like there
are still a lot of optimizations that are going on to attempt to improve
that refresh rate...

~Brett (KC7OTG)

On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 16:57 -0600, Dave Quick - KØEKL wrote:

> Below is a link to a couple photos of the new Elecraft P3 panadapter which I
> took today at the Orlando Hamcation.
>  
> Eric, WA6HHQ, said he expected the price to be around $700.00 (no commitment
> here - price subject to change)  and he hopes to begin shipping sometime in
> April. He said that production and shipping is limited by availability of
> the LCD screen vendor to supply product.
>  
> Here's the link: www.flickr.com/photos/47514701@N06/
>
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