Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

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Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

johnpierce
I have several dimmers around my house that generate 20db of noise on the HF
bands.  I have seen some recommendations for ferrite beads that can be used
for filtering.  However, I cannot find that info.  Some were snap on beads.
I am assuming that locating them in the power feed lines to the dimmer box
would help in reducing the RFI.  What do you recommend?

 

John

AD2F

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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

Jim Brown-10
On Sun,1/24/2016 6:56 PM, johnpierce wrote:
> Some were snap on beads.
> I am assuming that locating them in the power feed lines to the dimmer box
> would help in reducing the RFI.  What do you recommend?

Replace the noisy dimmers with quiet ones. Lutron makes dimmers that are
RF quiet. Available at the big box stores.

Snap-on beads are NOT effective on the HF bands.

73, Jim K(YC
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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

NK7Z
In reply to this post by johnpierce
Hi,
I have a series of three articles on RFI, located at:

http://nk7z.net/category/info/mitigation-of-rf-interference/i-have-rfi-series/

the second article down, titled "I have RFI, now what: House Cleaning"
has the some of the correct part numbers for the Fair-Rite corporation
snap on ferrites.

Best is to replace the dimmers though...

--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net

For MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
For Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
For MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info


On Sun, 2016-01-24 at 21:56 -0500, johnpierce wrote:

> I have several dimmers around my house that generate 20db of noise on the HF
> bands.  I have seen some recommendations for ferrite beads that can be used
> for filtering.  However, I cannot find that info.  Some were snap on beads.
> I am assuming that locating them in the power feed lines to the dimmer box
> would help in reducing the RFI.  What do you recommend?
>
>  
>
> John
>
> AD2F
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

WB4SON
In a past job, I designed low and medium power phase cut dimmers.  Ferrite
clamps/beads will be almost useless.  Well designed filters will have
rather large series inductors (1 to 10 mH) and high voltage caps designed
to filter the high harmonic content caused by the Triac switching.  Cheap
ones barely pass the FCC conducted noise requirements.  More expensive ones
tend to have more robust filtering.

LED Dimmers are a horse of a different color.

I agree it would be easier to purchase a decent (not cheap) dimmer than try
to retrofit one.  Drop some serious bucks on a Lutron model and try it.
Take it back if it doesn't work.

73, Bob, WB4SON

On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:38 AM, David Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
> I have a series of three articles on RFI, located at:
>
>
> http://nk7z.net/category/info/mitigation-of-rf-interference/i-have-rfi-series/
>
> the second article down, titled "I have RFI, now what: House Cleaning"
> has the some of the correct part numbers for the Fair-Rite corporation
> snap on ferrites.
>
> Best is to replace the dimmers though...
>
> --
> Thanks and 73's,
> For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
> www.nk7z.net
>
> For MixW support see;
> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
> For Dopplergram information see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
> For MM-SSTV see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info
>
>
> On Sun, 2016-01-24 at 21:56 -0500, johnpierce wrote:
> > I have several dimmers around my house that generate 20db of noise on
> the HF
> > bands.  I have seen some recommendations for ferrite beads that can be
> used
> > for filtering.  However, I cannot find that info.  Some were snap on
> beads.
> > I am assuming that locating them in the power feed lines to the dimmer
> box
> > would help in reducing the RFI.  What do you recommend?
> >
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> > AD2F
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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73, Bob, WB4SON
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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

Jim Brown-10
On Mon,1/25/2016 9:16 AM, Bob wrote:
>   Drop some serious bucks on a Lutron model and try it.

Lutron dimmers are not "serious bucks" unless you want special features.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

Josh Fiden
I have a number of Lutron Maestro dimmers including a couple ELV types.
IIRC the standard models are around $30 and ELV something like $100/ea.
I have not noticed RFI with any of them, including operating 6m EME.

73,
Josh W6XU

On 1/25/2016 3:03 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>
> Lutron dimmers are not "serious bucks" unless you want special features.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

Charlie T, K3ICH
My simple (= cheep) solution is to simply turn off
all dimmer controlled lights when I'm on the
air.....
For me, this is easy since there's only two in the
whole house!

Charlie k3ICH

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft
[mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Josh Fiden
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 7:23 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Filtering RFI from LED &
flouresence Dimmer Switches

I have a number of Lutron Maestro dimmers
including a couple ELV types.
IIRC the standard models are around $30 and ELV
something like $100/ea.
I have not noticed RFI with any of them, including
operating 6m EME.



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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

Kevin Stover
My simple (=cheaper) solution is to get rid of the dimmers all together.
How much is a good old fashioned light switch at the big three, $1.50,
two buck if you want a matching switch plate.
When we bought our house I replaced six dimmers. Didn't hear a peep from
"she who must be obeyed".
I have about that many CFL's to swap out for LED's. The garage
fluorescents will be a different story. They get to stay as long as they
stay radio quiet.

On 1/25/2016 6:52 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
> My simple (= cheep) solution is to simply turn off
> all dimmer controlled lights when I'm on the
> air.....
> For me, this is easy since there's only two in the
> whole house!
>
> Charlie k3ICH
>
>


--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


---
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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

Stephen Shearer
Be careful.  Not all LED's are the same.
Early on I purchased a cheap two-pack at HomeDepot.
Later I was using brand name.  I started to have some noise problems -
the cheap no-names were causing problems.  I am almost all LED's now.
I started because my YL could hear the CFL power supply buzzing and
LED's are a higher switching freq she could not hear.

I am a scout campmaster, our cabin (and all lights in camp) were
replaced with cheap LED's and we have HF noise problems.  I also have a
dimmer to deal with in our cabin.  I am not sure the dimmer is a problem
but with the LED's I can't tell.  I am thinking about purchasing better
LED's and replacing them...  Five to start.  I am not sure there isn't a
ground issue (or ground loop?) either.  Unplugging the microwave solved
the problem one time but not the next...

The KX3 is great for tracing LED noise - battery power...

73, steve WB3LGC

On 25-Jan-16 8:22 PM, Kevin Stover wrote:

> I have about that many CFL's to swap out for LED's.
>
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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

David Ahrendts
In reply to this post by Kevin Stover
Thanks to all who have posted on this thread. Very informative. I have an entire house full of Lutron dimmers — all servicing halogens — circa 2001 design (pre-LED). And being a green guy with solar panels on the roof and plug-in hybrid, I was considering LEDs for the whole house. Will step very carefully now because of this discussion. Curious, does anyone have an example of LED noise recorded?

David Ahrendts, KK6DA (formerly KC0XT), LA


> On Jan 25, 2016, at 5:22 PM, Kevin Stover <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My simple (=cheaper) solution is to get rid of the dimmers all together.
> How much is a good old fashioned light switch at the big three, $1.50, two buck if you want a matching switch plate.
> When we bought our house I replaced six dimmers. Didn't hear a peep from "she who must be obeyed".
> I have about that many CFL's to swap out for LED's. The garage fluorescents will be a different story. They get to stay as long as they stay radio quiet.
>
> On 1/25/2016 6:52 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
>> My simple (= cheep) solution is to simply turn off
>> all dimmer controlled lights when I'm on the
>> air.....
>> For me, this is easy since there's only two in the
>> whole house!
>>
>> Charlie k3ICH
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> R. Kevin Stover
> AC0H
> ARRL
> FISTS #11993
> SKCC #215
> NAQCC #3441
>
>




David Ahrendts   [hidden email]  




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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

Jim Brown-10
On Mon,1/25/2016 5:57 PM, David Ahrendts wrote:
> Curious, does anyone have an example of LED noise recorded?

LEDs do NOT make noise. What makes noise is the switch-mode power
supply, and/or the dimmers used to make them run.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

John Pitz
In reply to this post by David Ahrendts
For what it's worth, when LEDs first became affordable I thought the
perfect place to try one out was in the garage door opener.  With all
the vibration and the constant cycling on and off every time the beam
was broken an LED bulb seemed like a perfect fit.  We ran into an issue
immediately.  When we opened the door in the morning to go to work, the
controller would turn on the light bulb.  The light bulb somehow
clobbered the receiver so we were unable to close the garage door with
the remote.  We would have to get out of the car and go into the garage
to use the push button then try to scamper out without breaking the
beam.  When we got home from work we would be able to open the door with
the remote.  The only time the remote didn’t work was when the the light
was on.  The wife was convinced the opener was going bad.  I got to be
the hero and fixed the opener, by replacing the light bulb.  That was
one of the easiest repairs I have done to that thing hi hi!

John Pitz
KD8CIV


On Mon, 2016-01-25 at 17:57 -0800, David Ahrendts wrote:

> Thanks to all who have posted on this thread. Very informative. I have an entire house full of Lutron dimmers — all servicing halogens — circa 2001 design (pre-LED). And being a green guy with solar panels on the roof and plug-in hybrid, I was considering LEDs for the whole house. Will step very carefully now because of this discussion. Curious, does anyone have an example of LED noise recorded?
>
> David Ahrendts, KK6DA (formerly KC0XT), LA
>
>
> > On Jan 25, 2016, at 5:22 PM, Kevin Stover <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > My simple (=cheaper) solution is to get rid of the dimmers all together.
> > How much is a good old fashioned light switch at the big three, $1.50, two buck if you want a matching switch plate.
> > When we bought our house I replaced six dimmers. Didn't hear a peep from "she who must be obeyed".
> > I have about that many CFL's to swap out for LED's. The garage fluorescents will be a different story. They get to stay as long as they stay radio quiet.
> >
> > On 1/25/2016 6:52 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
> >> My simple (= cheep) solution is to simply turn off
> >> all dimmer controlled lights when I'm on the
> >> air.....
> >> For me, this is easy since there's only two in the
> >> whole house!
> >>
> >> Charlie k3ICH
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > R. Kevin Stover
> > AC0H
> > ARRL
> > FISTS #11993
> > SKCC #215
> > NAQCC #3441
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> David Ahrendts   [hidden email]  
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

Craig Smith
Thanks for the garage door opener experience.   I had my door and opener replaced a few months ago.   The manual for the opener (Lift Master) specifically says not to use LED bulbs.   I was scratching my head over that but did use CFLs in the opener.  I asked the installer why that recommendation was there, and he said he didn’t know why LEDs couldn’t be used.   But, as your experience shows, it appears that it can indeed be a problem.   Probably the close proximity of the opener receiver to the poorly filtered (for some bulbs) switch-mode converters in the bulbs.

73  Craig   AC0DS

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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

Clay Autery
Wonder if it's "OK" to use "quality" LED bulbs and get away with it?
I've got the full Lift Master setup...  I'll check the two types of LEDs
I have (one CREE based, the other not) and see if it impacts the remote
opener's ability to function.

73,

______________________
Clay Autery

On 1/26/2016 9:38 AM, Craig Smith wrote:

> Thanks for the garage door opener experience.   I had my door and opener replaced a few months ago.   The manual for the opener (Lift Master) specifically says not to use LED bulbs.   I was scratching my head over that but did use CFLs in the opener.  I asked the installer why that recommendation was there, and he said he didn’t know why LEDs couldn’t be used.   But, as your experience shows, it appears that it can indeed be a problem.   Probably the close proximity of the opener receiver to the poorly filtered (for some bulbs) switch-mode converters in the bulbs.
>
> 73  Craig   AC0DS
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

Bill Frantz
FWIW, we have an old Lift Master 1/2 Horsepower garage door
opener. It's manual said not to use CFLs (it is too old to know
about LEDs). I tried CFLs anyway. They lasted less than 2 weeks
before they died.

73 Bill AE6JV

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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

Craig Smith
Thanks, Bill.    I have the newer DC motor with Battery Backup Liftmaster, but I’m guessing the receivers might be similar.   Interestingly, in the new manual they actually recommend CFLs but warn against LED.  Obviously the front end of their receiver is not designed to Elecraft standards   ;>)

73  Craig   AC0DS

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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

Bob McGraw - K4TAX
If you choose to use incandescent lamps in the garage door opener,
choose the "heavy duty vibration resistant" bulbs.   These can also be
found labeled as "ceiling fan" bulbs.  Seems that they have 3 or 4 wires
supporting the filament as opposed to only two wires for the standard bulb.

73
Bob, K4TAX

On 1/26/2016 2:48 PM, Craig Smith wrote:

> Thanks, Bill.    I have the newer DC motor with Battery Backup Liftmaster, but I’m guessing the receivers might be similar.   Interestingly, in the new manual they actually recommend CFLs but warn against LED.  Obviously the front end of their receiver is not designed to Elecraft standards   ;>)
>
> 73  Craig   AC0DS
>
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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

Kenneth Christiansen
In reply to this post by Craig Smith
Hi to the group
I have a 40 year old Sears chain drive door opener with two Cree led bulbs. They have been there for over 2 years with no problem using the remote. Every bulb in my house except the oven and refrigerator has been replaced by Cree led bulbs. I have run my K3 and P3 on each antenna on battery power with main AC off than turned everything on in order and no change in noise level. I consider myself lucky.
Ken W0CZ w0cz at i29 dot net

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 26, 2016, at 9:38 AM, Craig Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the garage door opener experience.   I had my door and opener replaced a few months ago.   The manual for the opener (Lift Master) specifically says not to use LED bulbs.   I was scratching my head over that but did use CFLs in the opener.  I asked the installer why that recommendation was there, and he said he didn’t know why LEDs couldn’t be used.   But, as your experience shows, it appears that it can indeed be a problem.   Probably the close proximity of the opener receiver to the poorly filtered (for some bulbs) switch-mode converters in the bulbs.
>
> 73  Craig   AC0DS
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Re: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

Phil Kane-2
In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX
On 1/26/2016 12:59 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

> If you choose to use incandescent lamps in the garage door opener,
> choose the "heavy duty vibration resistant" bulbs.   These can also be
> found labeled as "ceiling fan" bulbs.  Seems that they have 3 or 4 wires
> supporting the filament as opposed to only two wires for the standard bulb.

They are also called "Rough Service" bulbs.  For years I thought that
that was "rough surface" from the bulb's coating.  No RFI from them AFAICT.

At home I use  a remote-controlled light dimmer for a table lamp.  It's
a double threat - the remote Part 15 and the dimmer electronics.  After
ruining one with an LED I RTFM that said "incandescent only".  I then
found a similar dimmer at a specialty lighting store that was certified
for LEDs.  It was also necessary to get a dimmable LED - not all are.  I
tried it out at the store to make sure that it would work together.

The upshot is that I cannot detect any RFI even though the lamp is in
the next room.  Of course, with the high HF noise level here, it may
just be masked.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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FW: Filtering RFI from LED & flouresence Dimmer Switches

Charlie T, K3ICH
In reply to this post by Kevin Stover

I replaced some of my older 2 X 4 foot,
"shop-lights" with LED versions from Costco
($27.95 ea.) in the garage and an out-building. So
far, I don't hear any RFI from them.   The LED
shop lights use a 38 Watt total draw compared to
60 W (electronic ballast) or even 90 watts (older
magnetic ballast.)  However the BIG advantage is
that come on at full brightness at 10 degrees.
Previously, the out building lights dimly
flickered and buzzed for 15 min or more until they
warmed up.

73, Charlie k3ICH



-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft
[mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Kevin Stover
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 8:22 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Filtering RFI from LED &
flouresence Dimmer Switches

My simple (=cheaper) solution is to get rid of the
dimmers all together.
How much is a good old fashioned light switch at
the big three, $1.50, two buck if you want a
matching switch plate.
When we bought our house I replaced six dimmers.
Didn't hear a peep from "she who must be obeyed".
I have about that many CFL's to swap out for
LED's. The garage fluorescents will be a different
story. They get to stay as long as they stay radio
quiet.

On 1/25/2016 6:52 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
> My simple (= cheep) solution is to simply turn
off all dimmer
> controlled lights when I'm on the air.....
> For me, this is easy since there's only two in
the whole house!
>
> Charlie k3ICH
>
>


--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


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