Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?

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Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?

Jim AB3CV
In considering remote operation options I'm still struggling with how to
implement a kill switch that is foolproof.

Last night we had several power glitches that left our Comcast modem hung
up. There was really no service outage in the area so all it took was
unplugging and replugging the modem to restore it. Of course it took nearly
5 minutes to completely come alive with internet service active.

This happens often enough that it makes me concerned that if internet
service is interrupted while I'm operating remotely I wouldn't be able to
kill the transmitter output.

So I'm wondering if a better option is to have a deadman timer to kill the
K3 and amp output. Not sure what criteria I would use to reset the deadman.
I'm sure a Raspberry Pi or similar could be programmed to do the work.

Suggestions welcomed!

jim ab3cv
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Re: Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?

Rick WA6NHC-2
My Motorola SurfBoard modem that I used on Comcast requires 12V @ .75
amp supply.  If you are using the same or similar, why not:

1)  Put the wall wart on a UPS or
2)  Float a 12V battery on the power input to the modem or
3)  Put the modem on your 12V rail (presuming it's on a constant supply,
like a battery, use ferrites just in case)?

Since Comcast provides VoIP phone service, they are typically required
to keep the hardware in their lines running (on battery typically, so
the phones [for 911 at least] don't fail) so even if the power is out in
your area, there should be service on your coax.

Keeping your modem alive is the simplest solution, regardless of the
power fluctuations.  Your computer should be treated in a similar
manner, they have less of a sense of humor about power issues.

If you want to look at what the modem is seeing (signal strength,
channels, frequencies, etc) in your browser look at: 192.168.100.1
(which also includes a means of resetting and rebooting from your
computer, just don't do that while remotely controlling it).

73,
Rick WA6NHC/7 (now from North Idaho)



On 5/29/2017 8:20 AM, Jim Miller wrote:

> In considering remote operation options I'm still struggling with how to
> implement a kill switch that is foolproof.
>
> Last night we had several power glitches that left our Comcast modem hung
> up. There was really no service outage in the area so all it took was
> unplugging and replugging the modem to restore it. Of course it took nearly
> 5 minutes to completely come alive with internet service active.
>
> This happens often enough that it makes me concerned that if internet
> service is interrupted while I'm operating remotely I wouldn't be able to
> kill the transmitter output.
>
> So I'm wondering if a better option is to have a deadman timer to kill the
> K3 and amp output. Not sure what criteria I would use to reset the deadman.
> I'm sure a Raspberry Pi or similar could be programmed to do the work.
>
> Suggestions welcomed!
>
> jim ab3cv
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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Re: Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?

GaryK9GS
In reply to this post by Jim AB3CV
Hello Jim
Some friends of mine that have a rental condo in FL were having a problem with their Nest Wi-Fi  thermostat due to the frequent power glitches from FL thunderstorms.  I installed a small UPS on the router in their condo that solved the problem.
Maybe something to consider. 


73,
Gary K9GS
-------- Original message --------From: Jim Miller <[hidden email]> Date: 5/29/17  10:20 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]> Subject: [Elecraft] Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?
In considering remote operation options I'm still struggling with how to
implement a kill switch that is foolproof.

Last night we had several power glitches that left our Comcast modem hung
up. There was really no service outage in the area so all it took was
unplugging and replugging the modem to restore it. Of course it took nearly
5 minutes to completely come alive with internet service active.

This happens often enough that it makes me concerned that if internet
service is interrupted while I'm operating remotely I wouldn't be able to
kill the transmitter output.

So I'm wondering if a better option is to have a deadman timer to kill the
K3 and amp output. Not sure what criteria I would use to reset the deadman.
I'm sure a Raspberry Pi or similar could be programmed to do the work.

Suggestions welcomed!

jim ab3cv
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Re: Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?

Michael Adams
I have my cable modem and router on a UPS.

However, I parsed the initial request as something different: even with my UPS, sometimes my cable modem connection drops; and sometimes my router gets wonky for unknown reasons, and a reset is required to clear the situation.

An ideal kill switch would be able to test for connectivity (to the network at large, if not to the remote session specifically), and trigger if it's lost and not-reestablished in a timely manner.
--
Michael Adams | [hidden email]
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Re: Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?

Michael Walker
I have a RPI that monitors for open IP ports to Google and CNN.

If they are both gone, then I power cycle the modem.  It checks every 15
minutes.

You could also have the PI do anything you like on other GPIO ports like
kill a TX line or a power line to the radio.

AKA, if no internet, then do a full shutdown of things.  Just add relays as
required.

It is discussed here:
https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/remote-operation-modem-rebooting
 (sorry for the Flex thing, but that is what drove me to do it)

Mike va3mw


On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Michael Adams <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have my cable modem and router on a UPS.
>
> However, I parsed the initial request as something different: even with my
> UPS, sometimes my cable modem connection drops; and sometimes my router
> gets wonky for unknown reasons, and a reset is required to clear the
> situation.
>
> An ideal kill switch would be able to test for connectivity (to the
> network at large, if not to the remote session specifically), and trigger
> if it's lost and not-reestablished in a timely manner.
> --
> Michael Adams | [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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Re: Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?

Kevin - K4VD
In reply to this post by Michael Adams
​I wonder if a feature request which includes a watchdog timer on transmit
might be a general solution.​ If it were available, I might set mine for 5
or 10 minutes. This way the radio would terminate transmitting without just
pulling the power which might cause some issues with internal processes or
memory maybe?

73,
Kev K4VD
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Re: Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?

k6dgw
In reply to this post by Jim AB3CV
Correct meJimif I misunderstand, but it sounds like you are looking for
a truly fail-safe way to make sure your remote doesn't go into
continuous transmit, and to recover it after the control-link returns
and is stable.

"97.213(b) Provisions are incorporated to limit transmission by the
station to a period of no more than 3 minutes in the event of
malfunction in the control link."

Just assuring your I'net modem is on aUPS doesn't seem to meet that
need.  The way(s) I've seen it done on remotely controlled mtn-top
VHF/UHF base stations on a network linked by radio, microwave, and VOiP
include two parts:

1.  A simple RF sensor with3 min timer that resets to zero every time
the RF drops.  It interrupts the power, and must be reset via the
control link.  I've seen some that self-reset after some period [like 10
mins] with a limit on the number of times it will do so.  Most used the
NO contacts such that the relay has to be energized to power the
transmitter.

2.  An interlock that prevents keying of the transmitter unless the
control link is active.  This was usually accomplished with a
sub-audible tone [CTCSS] that either keyed the remote transmitter
itself, or enabled keying by some other means.  No control tone = no TX.

3.  Recovery from remote power failures with K-line equipmentmay require
a couple of little robots [maybe Lego's?] to punch the PWR switches. [:-)

I believe #3 can be solved on Elecraft equipment with one of the lines
in the AUX cable.  #'s 1 and 2 are *not* the same thing.

73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn

On 5/29/2017 8:20 AM, Jim Miller wrote:

> In considering remote operation options I'm still struggling with how to
> implement a kill switch that is foolproof.
>
> Last night we had several power glitches that left our Comcast modem hung
> up. There was really no service outage in the area so all it took was
> unplugging and replugging the modem to restore it. Of course it took nearly
> 5 minutes to completely come alive with internet service active.
>
> This happens often enough that it makes me concerned that if internet
> service is interrupted while I'm operating remotely I wouldn't be able to
> kill the transmitter output.
>
> So I'm wondering if a better option is to have a deadman timer to kill the
> K3 and amp output. Not sure what criteria I would use to reset the deadman.
> I'm sure a Raspberry Pi or similar could be programmed to do the work.
>
> Suggestions welcomed!
>
> jim ab3cv
>

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Re: Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?

Phil Kane-2
In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2
On 5/29/2017 8:45 AM, Rick WA6NHC wrote:

> Since Comcast provides VoIP phone service, they are typically required
> to keep the hardware in their lines running (on battery typically, so
> the phones [for 911 at least] don't fail) so even if the power is out in
> your area, there should be service on your coax.

Experience:  Major 12-hour power outage April 7 2017.

Both my (personally owned) Cable Modem and Router run on a UPS whose 8
AH battery has been upgraded to 27 AH for extended time -  not a problem
when the UPS is operating at 10% of rated load.

Comcast Internet and VoIP lasted about 2 hours and died before the UPS
shut down.  Those of us "in the business" have been after the cable and
mobile phone carriers to put in more robust battery supplies and backup
generators but it falls on deaf ears.

The station back-up power system here - 12 V / 170 AH - ran at about 10
A nominal load for all 12 hours (the K2 and the VHF/UHF gear in
receive/standby modes) and the bus voltage dropped only 0.3 V !   Then
again, my mentor in designing the system 20 years ago was my late
colleague Tom Croda KA6KBI (SK) who was until his passing considered
-the- national expert on battery-backup power systems for critical
communication sites.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

VP - General Counsel & Engineering Manager
CSI Telecommunications, Inc. - Consulting Engineers
San Francisco, CA - Beaverton, OR
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Re: Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?

Don Wilhelm
In reply to this post by Jim AB3CV
Jim,

I think it could all be done with your Raspberry Pi idea.

The transmit state of the K3 can be indicated by the state of KEYOUT-LP
on pin 10 of the ACC connector.  Since it is an open drain, you will
need a pullup to determine its state.  It is grounded during transmit
and open circuit otherwise.
When it is grounded, start the timer.  You will have to decide how long
your transmissions will be.  Reset the timer with a positive-going
transition of the KEYOUT-LP line.

If the timer expires, I would suggest first issuing a Power Off command
to the K3 over the RS-232 connection.  If that fails, then more drastic
action is required - like pulling the plug.

You can power the K3 back on by pin 8 of the ACC connector.  See Remote
Power On at page 43 of the manual.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/29/2017 11:20 AM, Jim Miller wrote:
> In considering remote operation options I'm still struggling with how to
> implement a kill switch that is foolproof.
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Re: Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?

Jim AB3CV
In reply to this post by Jim AB3CV
Thanks for all the suggestions. Does anyone run Remote Rig and know what
failsafe it may provide?

73

jim ab3cv

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Jim Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In considering remote operation options I'm still struggling with how to
> implement a kill switch that is foolproof.
>
> Last night we had several power glitches that left our Comcast modem hung
> up. There was really no service outage in the area so all it took was
> unplugging and replugging the modem to restore it. Of course it took nearly
> 5 minutes to completely come alive with internet service active.
>
> This happens often enough that it makes me concerned that if internet
> service is interrupted while I'm operating remotely I wouldn't be able to
> kill the transmitter output.
>
> So I'm wondering if a better option is to have a deadman timer to kill the
> K3 and amp output. Not sure what criteria I would use to reset the deadman.
> I'm sure a Raspberry Pi or similar could be programmed to do the work.
>
> Suggestions welcomed!
>
> jim ab3cv
>
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Re: Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?

Michael Walker
Jim

I have used Remote Rig on my TS480 for years.  They are great units and I
highly recommend them.

I replaced them with a 6300 and a Maestro about a year go.  The setup is
more complicated at the moment, but that also works well.

I have been running remote for about 11 years now and I don't get to my
remote base for months at a time.  The one thing to remember is that look
around your shack and make a list of every button you push.

You now have to figure out how to do it from behind a locked door.  :)

Mike va3mw

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 6:30 PM, Jim Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for all the suggestions. Does anyone run Remote Rig and know what
> failsafe it may provide?
>
> 73
>
> jim ab3cv
>
> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Jim Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > In considering remote operation options I'm still struggling with how to
> > implement a kill switch that is foolproof.
> >
> > Last night we had several power glitches that left our Comcast modem hung
> > up. There was really no service outage in the area so all it took was
> > unplugging and replugging the modem to restore it. Of course it took
> nearly
> > 5 minutes to completely come alive with internet service active.
> >
> > This happens often enough that it makes me concerned that if internet
> > service is interrupted while I'm operating remotely I wouldn't be able to
> > kill the transmitter output.
> >
> > So I'm wondering if a better option is to have a deadman timer to kill
> the
> > K3 and amp output. Not sure what criteria I would use to reset the
> deadman.
> > I'm sure a Raspberry Pi or similar could be programmed to do the work.
> >
> > Suggestions welcomed!
> >
> > jim ab3cv
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Re: Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?

k6dgw
In reply to this post by Jim AB3CV
I run Remote Rig with W7RN.  In terms of what I think you're looking
for, it really doesn't provide anything. It's a control and audio
interface between two rigs.  With K3's at each end, and an IP path to
the remote RR box, turning on your control K3 puts it in TERM mode and
turns the remote K3 on.  Your K3doesn't make any RF but it behaves
exactly as if it was, your display is a carbon copy of what the remote
K3 is doing.  RR will work with other radios, Ihave no experience with
any of them.

Depending on what might be hanging the remote in TX, turning your
control K3 off may or may not fix the problem.  As Rick, N6XI, says,
"Remote Rig involves a *lot* of 'moving parts' and is non-trivial to set
up."

73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn

"Carbon Copy:"  An ancient method of making one or more copies of a
typewritten document while typing the original.

On 5/29/2017 3:30 PM, Jim Miller wrote:

> Thanks for all the suggestions. Does anyone run Remote Rig and know what
> failsafe it may provide?
>
> 73
>
> jim ab3cv
>
> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Jim Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> In considering remote operation options I'm still struggling with how to
>> implement a kill switch that is foolproof.
>>
>> Last night we had several power glitches that left our Comcast modem hung
>> up. There was really no service outage in the area so all it took was
>> unplugging and replugging the modem to restore it. Of course it took nearly
>> 5 minutes to completely come alive with internet service active.
>>
>> This happens often enough that it makes me concerned that if internet
>> service is interrupted while I'm operating remotely I wouldn't be able to
>> kill the transmitter output.
>>
>> So I'm wondering if a better option is to have a deadman timer to kill the
>> K3 and amp output. Not sure what criteria I would use to reset the deadman.
>> I'm sure a Raspberry Pi or similar could be programmed to do the work.
>>
>> Suggestions welcomed!
>>
>> jim ab3cv
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Re: Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?

tomb18
In reply to this post by Jim AB3CV
I've seen something similar on Yaesu transceiver. It's a timeout for transmit built into the firmware of the radio. So if transmit is engaged for a set period of time, the firmware will do a shut down if the radio. Perhaps elecraft can add such a function? 73 Tom va2fsq.com 


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> Date: 2017-05-29  7:53 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fool proof kill switch = deadman timer?
I run Remote Rig with W7RN.  In terms of what I think you're looking
for, it really doesn't provide anything. It's a control and audio
interface between two rigs.  With K3's at each end, and an IP path to
the remote RR box, turning on your control K3 puts it in TERM mode and
turns the remote K3 on.  Your K3doesn't make any RF but it behaves
exactly as if it was, your display is a carbon copy of what the remote
K3 is doing.  RR will work with other radios, Ihave no experience with
any of them.

Depending on what might be hanging the remote in TX, turning your
control K3 off may or may not fix the problem.  As Rick, N6XI, says,
"Remote Rig involves a *lot* of 'moving parts' and is non-trivial to set
up."

73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn

"Carbon Copy:"  An ancient method of making one or more copies of a
typewritten document while typing the original.

On 5/29/2017 3:30 PM, Jim Miller wrote:

> Thanks for all the suggestions. Does anyone run Remote Rig and know what
> failsafe it may provide?
>
> 73
>
> jim ab3cv
>
> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Jim Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> In considering remote operation options I'm still struggling with how to
>> implement a kill switch that is foolproof.
>>
>> Last night we had several power glitches that left our Comcast modem hung
>> up. There was really no service outage in the area so all it took was
>> unplugging and replugging the modem to restore it. Of course it took nearly
>> 5 minutes to completely come alive with internet service active.
>>
>> This happens often enough that it makes me concerned that if internet
>> service is interrupted while I'm operating remotely I wouldn't be able to
>> kill the transmitter output.
>>
>> So I'm wondering if a better option is to have a deadman timer to kill the
>> K3 and amp output. Not sure what criteria I would use to reset the deadman.
>> I'm sure a Raspberry Pi or similar could be programmed to do the work.
>>
>> Suggestions welcomed!
>>
>> jim ab3cv
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
>

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