Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-April issue)

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
28 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-April issue)

Eric Lanzl
I am wondering how to set up the k3 for the Free DV (digital voice) the article
in QST about a way to do digital voice on hf. Has anyone tried it with the k3?
Would one set the k3 to the DATA A position? How does one set the audio on the
computer sound card? I am very new to the digital modes and do not fully
understand what the settings mean. Can someone run through how to set the k3 for
Free DV. I think you also have to set the line out setting in the config menu
and hook up the line in line out cables to the computer. Can one use a regular
computer mic and headphones. I know the Free DV article calls for a USB headset.
I have a headset but not a usb headset. It uses the mic and speaker jacks on the
computer. Will this work as well as the usb headset?

Thank you very much
Eric
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-April issue)

Mike Heitmann
Hi Eric,

I've used it with my KX3 and used DATA A mode and set the audio levels like I would for other digital modes. I would think the K3 would be the same.

Mike, N0SO

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 2, 2013, at 6:52 PM, Eric Lanzl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am wondering how to set up the k3 for the Free DV (digital voice) the article
> in QST about a way to do digital voice on hf. Has anyone tried it with the k3?
> Would one set the k3 to the DATA A position? How does one set the audio on the
> computer sound card? I am very new to the digital modes and do not fully
> understand what the settings mean. Can someone run through how to set the k3 for
> Free DV. I think you also have to set the line out setting in the config menu
> and hook up the line in line out cables to the computer. Can one use a regular
> computer mic and headphones. I know the Free DV article calls for a USB headset.
> I have a headset but not a usb headset. It uses the mic and speaker jacks on the
> computer. Will this work as well as the usb headset?
>
> Thank you very much
> Eric
>
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-April issue)

ve3dvy
Yes   use the same setting as you would for PSK or any other sound card
based digital mode  using DATA-A.      Set the computer output level to
just make bar 5 flicker in the ALC.  Keep the output power down a bit.  
If you run full power and read a novel  the PA temp will rise quite high
after a few minutes.   I keep it around 60W or so.   I don't do that
much Freedv just enough to try for a  few QSOs.  but use Easypal that
send a similar digital signal out and the same power rule applies.

I have found that the mode works but the signal has to be fairly strong
over the noise to decode well.   nice and quite when you are receiving  
no hiss etc.   definitely not for DX but fine for rag chew or a round
table where all the signals are strong.

David Moes

[hidden email]
VE3DVY

On 4/2/2013 8:29 PM, Mike Heitmann wrote:

> Hi Eric,
>
> I've used it with my KX3 and used DATA A mode and set the audio levels like I would for other digital modes. I would think the K3 would be the same.
>
> Mike, N0SO
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Apr 2, 2013, at 6:52 PM, Eric Lanzl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I am wondering how to set up the k3 for the Free DV (digital voice) the article
>> in QST about a way to do digital voice on hf. Has anyone tried it with the k3?
>> Would one set the k3 to the DATA A position? How does one set the audio on the
>> computer sound card? I am very new to the digital modes and do not fully
>> understand what the settings mean. Can someone run through how to set the k3 for
>> Free DV. I think you also have to set the line out setting in the config menu
>> and hook up the line in line out cables to the computer. Can one use a regular
>> computer mic and headphones. I know the Free DV article calls for a USB headset.
>> I have a headset but not a usb headset. It uses the mic and speaker jacks on the
>> computer. Will this work as well as the usb headset?
>>
>> Thank you very much
>> Eric
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-April issue)

Chris Schrecengost
I read that same article and am interested in trying it out. I haven't seen
any activity yet on the 20m frequency listed on the FreeDV website. I'll
keep an eye out for something happening. I hope the article might get some
others interested.

I saw that the FreeDV site has a nice video for Windows users on the set-up.

http://freedv.org/tiki-index.php?page=Video+Microsoft+Windows+Quick+Start+Guide

There is a "QSO  Finder" online to try to encourage people to use the mode:

qso.k7ve.org

Chris
AB3QV
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-April issue)

ab2tc
Hi,

Is this mode perrmitted on the suggested frequency, 14236? According to the FCC US band plan this is in the "phone" band where CW, "phone" and "image" is permitted. I have never seen a precise definition of "phone" but take it to be either AM or SSB. Same for "image" but I am sure the original intention was analog SSTV. Currently there is a lot of digital image transfer going on at 14233 but I question the legality of that, too.  I am concerned with the creepage into our phone bands of wide digital modes with their raw audio when tuning in SSB mode. The occupants of these frequencies are also typically very protective of "their" frequencies and tend to be intolerant of "intruders".

AB2TC - Knut

Chris Schrecengost wrote
I read that same article and am interested in trying it out. I haven't seen
any activity yet on the 20m frequency listed on the FreeDV website. I'll
keep an eye out for something happening. I hope the article might get some
others interested.

I saw that the FreeDV site has a nice video for Windows users on the set-up.

http://freedv.org/tiki-index.php?page=Video+Microsoft+Windows+Quick+Start+Guide

There is a "QSO  Finder" online to try to encourage people to use the mode:

qso.k7ve.org

Chris
AB3QV
<snip>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)

MontyS
Digital slowscan uses tones, just like AFSK, PSK31, or any other
soundcard-based mode.  It does not use analog, continuously variable tones,
like original slowscan, but discrete tones, like AFSK.   It does not use a
bandwidth wider than a standard SSB signal, about 2.5 - 2.8 khz.  In fact
when I receive digital slowscan I narrow the bandwidth to remove
interference.

The worst "our frequency" offenders are the daily social nets found
throughout the phone allocations.  One frequency on each band does not
strike me as frequency hogging, and it does allow the few users of a mode to
find one another.  In the case of PSK31, it allows many times more QSOs to
be possible in the approximately 3khz segment used.

Monty K2DLJ


  I am concerned with the creepage into our phone bands of wide digital
modes with
their raw audio when tuning in SSB mode. The occupants of these frequencies
are also typically very protective of "their" frequencies and tend to be
intolerant of "intruders".

AB2TC - Knut

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)

Randy Hall
This is what is so great about getting a sound card interface working with
a radio. Once you do that, it opens up opportunities to use many of the
'digital' modes, as they all use the same sound card interface. PSK31, SSTV
(using MMSSTV), RTTY (using MMTTY), Hellschreiber, Digital Voice, Digital
SSTV and many many more,  You can find free software for all of these
modes.

I have several PSK-31 videos on my YouTube channel, just search for my call.

Have fun, see you on the waterfall.......

Randy. K7AGE


On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:46 AM, MontyS <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Digital slowscan uses tones, just like AFSK, PSK31, or any other
> soundcard-based mode.  It does not use analog, continuously variable tones,
> like original slowscan, but discrete tones, like AFSK.   It does not use a
> bandwidth wider than a standard SSB signal, about 2.5 - 2.8 khz.  In fact
> when I receive digital slowscan I narrow the bandwidth to remove
> interference.
>
> The worst "our frequency" offenders are the daily social nets found
> throughout the phone allocations.  One frequency on each band does not
> strike me as frequency hogging, and it does allow the few users of a mode
> to find one another.  In the case of PSK31, it allows many times more QSOs
> to be possible in the approximately 3khz segment used.
>
> Monty K2DLJ
>
>
>
>  I am concerned with the creepage into our phone bands of wide digital
> modes with
> their raw audio when tuning in SSB mode. The occupants of these frequencies
> are also typically very protective of "their" frequencies and tend to be
> intolerant of "intruders".
>
> AB2TC - Knut
>
> ______________________________**______________________________**__
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/**mailman/listinfo/elecraft<http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.**htm<http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
> Post: mailto:[hidden email].**net <[hidden email]>
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-April issue)

Richard Fjeld
In reply to this post by Eric Lanzl
Eric,

The K3 interfaces easily for freeDV, and I have had several unsolicited audio reports that said I sounded very natural.  Unfortunately, we can't use our DVR for this.

You use freeDV like you do for psk31, but with the addition of either a USB sound dongle to plug a computer headset/mic into, or you use a USB headset/mic.  I had a cheap computer headset/mic, so I use a USB sound dongle.  They are as cheap as $1.69.  Either one will look like another sound card to your computer.

There are a couple links on the website for YouTube videos that are very good tutorials.  I suggest you watch them and pause them as needed while you are setting up your audio configurations.

Keep your power down to approximately one forth of your output capability.  The last recommendation I read was 20 %.  My first qso happened while I was testing at 5 watts.  The other station was a VE3, and I live in western MN.  It doesn't take much signal strength, just enough to be above the noise level.  I have watched strong signals that were being 'distorted' by band conditions such that the SNR dropped to near zero and a loss of sync was experienced.  At no time did the strong signal itself fade.  (That was before 0.961 version.)  My point is; a strong signal is no guarantee.  If a signal can be decoded, the audio will be as loud as the computer is set for, no matter what the signal strength is.

So far, I have not used Data A, but I have used the appropriate sideband so that I could hit the 'analog' button and speak to the other station using SSB as needed.

Some people experience a delayed echo of about 2 seconds while transmitting.  If so, you may need to turn your audio monitor off.  A USB sound dongle has a mute button for the phones that may work for this.  (Mine does not. Mine is an iMic.) You may need to unplug the radio's mic if needed.

You will need to experiment by testing which sound card sliders do what, and how they should be set.  Start out low, say one forth up.  You can use Quickmix, or Romac software to save your settings if wanted.  Keep your ALC low, just barely visible.  Make notes.

Good luck,

Rich, n0ce



  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Eric Lanzl
  To: [hidden email]
  Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 6:52 PM
  Subject: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-April issue)


  I am wondering how to set up the k3 for the Free DV (digital voice) the article
  in QST about a way to do digital voice on hf. Has anyone tried it with the k3?
  Would one set the k3 to the DATA A position? How does one set the audio on the
  computer sound card? I am very new to the digital modes and do not fully
  understand what the settings mean. Can someone run through how to set the k3 for
  Free DV. I think you also have to set the line out setting in the config menu
  and hook up the line in line out cables to the computer. Can one use a regular
  computer mic and headphones. I know the Free DV article calls for a USB headset.
  I have a headset but not a usb headset. It uses the mic and speaker jacks on the
  computer. Will this work as well as the usb headset?

  Thank you very much
  Eric
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-April issue)

Don Wilhelm-4
Since this is just another digital mode, why would you not set the K3
ALC indication as specified for other digital modes.  4 bars on the ALC
meter with the 5th bar flickering.

If you do not do it that way, the K3 will "power hunt" and you will not
have consistent power output.
Bring the audio up as indicated in the digital operation section of the
K3 manual and set the power knob for the desired power output.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/3/2013 1:12 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote:
> Keep your ALC low, just barely visible.  Make notes.
>
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)

Richard Fjeld
In reply to this post by MontyS
FreeDV uses about one-third the bandwidth of many of the SSB signals seen on the bands.  (1100 Hz)

We have tried it on 75 meters during heavy QRN and QRM while using low power.  We were surprised to find that we were able to work well, (but not perfect).  We had occasional loss of sync, but worked noise free due to it being digital.

It will not replace SSB, but it will be useful.

As for DSSTV; what a great way to send a .jpg drawing or picture to someone.  As they say, 'a picture is worth a thousand words'.  DSSTV pics are amazing clarity.  But, I guess the internet has spoiled us.  With that thought, why bother with radio?

Rich, n0ce

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: MontyS
  To: ab2tc ; [hidden email]
  Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:46 AM
  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)


  Digital slowscan uses tones, just like AFSK, PSK31, or any other
  soundcard-based mode.  It does not use analog, continuously variable tones,
  like original slowscan, but discrete tones, like AFSK.   It does not use a
  bandwidth wider than a standard SSB signal, about 2.5 - 2.8 khz.  In fact
  when I receive digital slowscan I narrow the bandwidth to remove
  interference.

  The worst "our frequency" offenders are the daily social nets found
  throughout the phone allocations.  One frequency on each band does not
  strike me as frequency hogging, and it does allow the few users of a mode to
  find one another.  In the case of PSK31, it allows many times more QSOs to
  be possible in the approximately 3khz segment used.

  Monty K2DLJ


    I am concerned with the creepage into our phone bands of wide digital
  modes with
  their raw audio when tuning in SSB mode. The occupants of these frequencies
  are also typically very protective of "their" frequencies and tend to be
  intolerant of "intruders".

  AB2TC - Knut

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)

Richard Fjeld
In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
Maybe I need an updated manual??  I do not find that in my manual, else I am overlooking it.  'Data modes' in my manual takes me to page 31.

Isn't it better to be on the 'lean' side than the 'strong' side for ALC in data modes?

I would like to know more about the K3 'power hunting'.

Rich, n0ce

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Don Wilhelm
  To: [hidden email]
  Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 12:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)


  Since this is just another digital mode, why would you not set the K3
  ALC indication as specified for other digital modes.  4 bars on the ALC
  meter with the 5th bar flickering.

  If you do not do it that way, the K3 will "power hunt" and you will not
  have consistent power output.
  Bring the audio up as indicated in the digital operation section of the
  K3 manual and set the power knob for the desired power output.

  73,
  Don W3FPR

  On 4/3/2013 1:12 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote:
  > Keep your ALC low, just barely visible.  Make notes.
  >
  >

  ______________________________________________________________
  Elecraft mailing list
  Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
  Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
  Post: mailto:[hidden email]

  This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
  Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)

Don Wilhelm-4
Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be.

Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should
know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar.  
The bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all.

Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient
audio, the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive)
and you will find your power drifting upward as you transmit.

So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power
will be uniform throughout the transmission.  With the K3 you must have
sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they should.
Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not control
power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use
that advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio
drive to control the power output.  That just will not work with the K3.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/3/2013 2:25 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote:

> Maybe I need an updated manual??  I do not find that in my manual, else I am overlooking it.  'Data modes' in my manual takes me to page 31.
>
> Isn't it better to be on the 'lean' side than the 'strong' side for ALC in data modes?
>
> I would like to know more about the K3 'power hunting'.
>
> Rich, n0ce
>
>    ----- Original Message -----
>    From: Don Wilhelm
>    To: [hidden email]
>    Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 12:29 PM
>    Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
>
>
>    Since this is just another digital mode, why would you not set the K3
>    ALC indication as specified for other digital modes.  4 bars on the ALC
>    meter with the 5th bar flickering.
>
>    If you do not do it that way, the K3 will "power hunt" and you will not
>    have consistent power output.
>    Bring the audio up as indicated in the digital operation section of the
>    K3 manual and set the power knob for the desired power output.
>
>    73,
>    Don W3FPR
>
>    On 4/3/2013 1:12 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote:
>    > Keep your ALC low, just barely visible.  Make notes.
>    >
>    >
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)

Stephen G4SJP
It took some finding on the Elecraft site and in the end I had to use the
site's search tool, but the information (and more besides) is at
http://www.elecraft.com/K3/k3_operating_tips.htm

I agree that something so important should be in the main manual.

73 Stephen G4SJP




On 3 April 2013 19:47, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be.
>
> Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should
> know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar.  The
> bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all.
>
> Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient audio,
> the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive) and you
> will find your power drifting upward as you transmit.
>
> So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power
> will be uniform throughout the transmission.  With the K3 you must have
> sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they should.
> Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not control
> power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use that
> advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio drive to
> control the power output.  That just will not work with the K3.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> On 4/3/2013 2:25 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote:
>
>> Maybe I need an updated manual??  I do not find that in my manual, else I
>> am overlooking it.  'Data modes' in my manual takes me to page 31.
>>
>> Isn't it better to be on the 'lean' side than the 'strong' side for ALC
>> in data modes?
>>
>> I would like to know more about the K3 'power hunting'.
>>
>> Rich, n0ce
>>
>>    ----- Original Message -----
>>    From: Don Wilhelm
>>    To: [hidden email]
>>    Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 12:29 PM
>>    Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in
>> QST-Aprilissue)
>>
>>
>>    Since this is just another digital mode, why would you not set the K3
>>    ALC indication as specified for other digital modes.  4 bars on the ALC
>>    meter with the 5th bar flickering.
>>
>>    If you do not do it that way, the K3 will "power hunt" and you will not
>>    have consistent power output.
>>    Bring the audio up as indicated in the digital operation section of the
>>    K3 manual and set the power knob for the desired power output.
>>
>>    73,
>>    Don W3FPR
>>
>>    On 4/3/2013 1:12 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote:
>>    > Keep your ALC low, just barely visible.  Make notes.
>>    >
>>    >
>>
>>
> ______________________________**______________________________**__
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/**mailman/listinfo/elecraft<http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.**htm<http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
> Post: mailto:[hidden email].**net <[hidden email]>
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)

Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT
In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
Is it safe to assume this is true of the KX3 as well?

-- Lynn

On 4/3/2013 11:47 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be.
>
> Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should
> know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar.
> The bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all.
>
> Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient
> audio, the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive)
> and you will find your power drifting upward as you transmit.
>
> So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power
> will be uniform throughout the transmission.  With the K3 you must have
> sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they should.
> Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not control
> power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use
> that advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio
> drive to control the power output.  That just will not work with the K3.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)

Don Wilhelm-4
Lynn,

I have no verification, but the KX3 is "similar" (but not necessarily
the same).  Note that the KX3 voice calls for 5 bars on the ALC meter
for voice, while the K3 calls for 5 to 7 bars.  That says that there may
be some difference.

We will have to wait for Lyle or Wayne to chime in with the real info on
the KX3 ALC onset point.

In the meantime, I would suggest that the answer is "yes" set the KX3
audio for 4 bars and assume that is the "no ALC" point.  The 5th bar
would then indicate ALC is being activated.

The power control in the KX3 is similar to the K3, so if the audio level
is too low, power creep will be the result.

BTW, for those using the K2, the situation is similar, but the K2 ALC
meter does not have the "VU meter" scale at the low end.  If the K2 ALC
indicator flickers, it means ALC has occurred.  For the K2, increase the
audio until you see an ALC indication, and then back off until it is
gone.  The power control on the K2, K3 and KX3 are essentially the same
- a closed loop system that attempts to produce the power output
requested on the power knob.  Most transceivers do not do this closed
loop power control, but instead use an open loop system that depends on
the drive level alone.  That is why the traditional advice to use the
audio drive level to control the power output works well with most
transceivers, but it does not work well with Elecraft transceivers
because they use a closed loop power control system.  Only Elecraft and
some commercial transceivers use this closed loop power control system.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/3/2013 5:53 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:

> Is it safe to assume this is true of the KX3 as well?
>
> -- Lynn
>
> On 4/3/2013 11:47 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be.
>>
>> Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should
>> know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar.
>> The bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all.
>>
>> Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient
>> audio, the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive)
>> and you will find your power drifting upward as you transmit.
>>
>> So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power
>> will be uniform throughout the transmission.  With the K3 you must have
>> sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they
>> should.
>> Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not control
>> power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use
>> that advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio
>> drive to control the power output.  That just will not work with the K3.
>>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)

Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT
Lyle answered me offlist and told me to RTFM, page 18.  It's right there
in black and white.

73 -- Lynn

On 4/3/2013 3:37 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Lynn,
>
> I have no verification, but the KX3 is "similar" (but not necessarily
> the same).  Note that the KX3 voice calls for 5 bars on the ALC meter
> for voice, while the K3 calls for 5 to 7 bars.  That says that there may
> be some difference.
>
> We will have to wait for Lyle or Wayne to chime in with the real info on
> the KX3 ALC onset point.
>
> In the meantime, I would suggest that the answer is "yes" set the KX3
> audio for 4 bars and assume that is the "no ALC" point.  The 5th bar
> would then indicate ALC is being activated.
>
> The power control in the KX3 is similar to the K3, so if the audio level
> is too low, power creep will be the result.
>
> BTW, for those using the K2, the situation is similar, but the K2 ALC
> meter does not have the "VU meter" scale at the low end.  If the K2 ALC
> indicator flickers, it means ALC has occurred.  For the K2, increase the
> audio until you see an ALC indication, and then back off until it is
> gone.  The power control on the K2, K3 and KX3 are essentially the same
> - a closed loop system that attempts to produce the power output
> requested on the power knob.  Most transceivers do not do this closed
> loop power control, but instead use an open loop system that depends on
> the drive level alone.  That is why the traditional advice to use the
> audio drive level to control the power output works well with most
> transceivers, but it does not work well with Elecraft transceivers
> because they use a closed loop power control system.  Only Elecraft and
> some commercial transceivers use this closed loop power control system.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 4/3/2013 5:53 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
>> Is it safe to assume this is true of the KX3 as well?
>>
>> -- Lynn
>>
>> On 4/3/2013 11:47 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>> Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be.
>>>
>>> Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should
>>> know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar.
>>> The bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all.
>>>
>>> Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient
>>> audio, the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive)
>>> and you will find your power drifting upward as you transmit.
>>>
>>> So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power
>>> will be uniform throughout the transmission.  With the K3 you must have
>>> sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they
>>> should.
>>> Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not control
>>> power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use
>>> that advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio
>>> drive to control the power output.  That just will not work with the K3.
>>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)

Richard Fjeld
In reply to this post by Stephen G4SJP
I'd like to thank all for their help, and for setting me straight.  I am guilty of reading the manual and using it to look up info when possible.

As for helping Eric, I thought it would be best to stay on what I thought was the safe side from a data consideration.

The radio gets better the more I learn about it.

Rich, n0ce

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Stephen Prior
  To: Elecraft
  Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 1:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)


  It took some finding on the Elecraft site and in the end I had to use the
  site's search tool, but the information (and more besides) is at
  http://www.elecraft.com/K3/k3_operating_tips.htm

  I agree that something so important should be in the main manual.

  73 Stephen G4SJP




  On 3 April 2013 19:47, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

  > Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be.
  >
  > Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should
  > know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar.  The
  > bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all.
  >
  > Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient audio,
  > the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive) and you
  > will find your power drifting upward as you transmit.
  >
  > So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power
  > will be uniform throughout the transmission.  With the K3 you must have
  > sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they should.
  > Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not control
  > power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use that
  > advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio drive to
  > control the power output.  That just will not work with the K3.
  >
  > 73,
  > Don W3FPR
  >
  >
  > On 4/3/2013 2:25 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote:
  >
  >> Maybe I need an updated manual??  I do not find that in my manual, else I
  >> am overlooking it.  'Data modes' in my manual takes me to page 31.
  >>
  >> Isn't it better to be on the 'lean' side than the 'strong' side for ALC
  >> in data modes?
  >>
  >> I would like to know more about the K3 'power hunting'.
  >>
  >> Rich, n0ce
  >>
  >>    ----- Original Message -----
  >>    From: Don Wilhelm
  >>    To: [hidden email]
  >>    Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 12:29 PM
  >>    Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in
  >> QST-Aprilissue)
  >>
  >>
  >>    Since this is just another digital mode, why would you not set the K3
  >>    ALC indication as specified for other digital modes.  4 bars on the ALC
  >>    meter with the 5th bar flickering.
  >>
  >>    If you do not do it that way, the K3 will "power hunt" and you will not
  >>    have consistent power output.
  >>    Bring the audio up as indicated in the digital operation section of the
  >>    K3 manual and set the power knob for the desired power output.
  >>
  >>    73,
  >>    Don W3FPR
  >>
  >>    On 4/3/2013 1:12 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote:
  >>    > Keep your ALC low, just barely visible.  Make notes.
  >>    >
  >>  
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)

John Sweeney
In reply to this post by Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT



> Since the subject is the Digital Voice with a K3.  
>
> I have operated the DV voice with my K3 with the ALC showing the 5 to 7 bars as recommended.  However, even if I set the power out to 50 watts or more, the maximum I can see on an external watt meter is at most 30 watts indicated.   I only see this limited power out indicated on the DV program, other digital modes programs I show as high or low as I set the power out for.  
>
> Is this normal with the DV program, latest version?  
>
> 73,  John,  N3WT

> Lyle answered me offlist and told me to RTFM, page 18.  It's right there in black and white.
>
> 73 -- Lynn
>
> On 4/3/2013 3:37 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Lynn,
>>
>> I have no verification, but the KX3 is "similar" (but not necessarily
>> the same).  Note that the KX3 voice calls for 5 bars on the ALC meter
>> for voice, while the K3 calls for 5 to 7 bars.  That says that there may
>> be some difference.
>>
>> We will have to wait for Lyle or Wayne to chime in with the real info on
>> the KX3 ALC onset point.
>>
>> In the meantime, I would suggest that the answer is "yes" set the KX3
>> audio for 4 bars and assume that is the "no ALC" point.  The 5th bar
>> would then indicate ALC is being activated.
>>
>> The power control in the KX3 is similar to the K3, so if the audio level
>> is too low, power creep will be the result.
>>
>> BTW, for those using the K2, the situation is similar, but the K2 ALC
>> meter does not have the "VU meter" scale at the low end.  If the K2 ALC
>> indicator flickers, it means ALC has occurred.  For the K2, increase the
>> audio until you see an ALC indication, and then back off until it is
>> gone.  The power control on the K2, K3 and KX3 are essentially the same
>> - a closed loop system that attempts to produce the power output
>> requested on the power knob.  Most transceivers do not do this closed
>> loop power control, but instead use an open loop system that depends on
>> the drive level alone.  That is why the traditional advice to use the
>> audio drive level to control the power output works well with most
>> transceivers, but it does not work well with Elecraft transceivers
>> because they use a closed loop power control system.  Only Elecraft and
>> some commercial transceivers use this closed loop power control system.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 4/3/2013 5:53 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
>>> Is it safe to assume this is true of the KX3 as well?
>>>
>>> -- Lynn
>>>
>>> On 4/3/2013 11:47 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>>> Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be.
>>>>
>>>> Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should
>>>> know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar.
>>>> The bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all.
>>>>
>>>> Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient
>>>> audio, the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive)
>>>> and you will find your power drifting upward as you transmit.
>>>>
>>>> So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power
>>>> will be uniform throughout the transmission.  With the K3 you must have
>>>> sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they
>>>> should.
>>>> Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not control
>>>> power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use
>>>> that advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio
>>>> drive to control the power output.  That just will not work with the K3.
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)

Eduardo González
Probably you are suffering the bandwidth issue about standard power meter.
Power meters used on shack are designed to measuring CW signals, single
tone signals. DV use a fixed bandwidth with multiple carriers that can
produce erroneous measures on standard watt-meters.

Edu YY4GMJ


On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 6:40 AM, John Sweeney <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> > Since the subject is the Digital Voice with a K3.
> >
> > I have operated the DV voice with my K3 with the ALC showing the 5 to 7
> bars as recommended.  However, even if I set the power out to 50 watts or
> more, the maximum I can see on an external watt meter is at most 30 watts
> indicated.   I only see this limited power out indicated on the DV program,
> other digital modes programs I show as high or low as I set the power out
> for.
> >
> > Is this normal with the DV program, latest version?
> >
> > 73,  John,  N3WT
>
> > Lyle answered me offlist and told me to RTFM, page 18.  It's right there
> in black and white.
> >
> > 73 -- Lynn
> >
> > On 4/3/2013 3:37 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> >> Lynn,
> >>
> >> I have no verification, but the KX3 is "similar" (but not necessarily
> >> the same).  Note that the KX3 voice calls for 5 bars on the ALC meter
> >> for voice, while the K3 calls for 5 to 7 bars.  That says that there may
> >> be some difference.
> >>
> >> We will have to wait for Lyle or Wayne to chime in with the real info on
> >> the KX3 ALC onset point.
> >>
> >> In the meantime, I would suggest that the answer is "yes" set the KX3
> >> audio for 4 bars and assume that is the "no ALC" point.  The 5th bar
> >> would then indicate ALC is being activated.
> >>
> >> The power control in the KX3 is similar to the K3, so if the audio level
> >> is too low, power creep will be the result.
> >>
> >> BTW, for those using the K2, the situation is similar, but the K2 ALC
> >> meter does not have the "VU meter" scale at the low end.  If the K2 ALC
> >> indicator flickers, it means ALC has occurred.  For the K2, increase the
> >> audio until you see an ALC indication, and then back off until it is
> >> gone.  The power control on the K2, K3 and KX3 are essentially the same
> >> - a closed loop system that attempts to produce the power output
> >> requested on the power knob.  Most transceivers do not do this closed
> >> loop power control, but instead use an open loop system that depends on
> >> the drive level alone.  That is why the traditional advice to use the
> >> audio drive level to control the power output works well with most
> >> transceivers, but it does not work well with Elecraft transceivers
> >> because they use a closed loop power control system.  Only Elecraft and
> >> some commercial transceivers use this closed loop power control system.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Don W3FPR
> >>
> >> On 4/3/2013 5:53 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
> >>> Is it safe to assume this is true of the KX3 as well?
> >>>
> >>> -- Lynn
> >>>
> >>> On 4/3/2013 11:47 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> >>>> Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be.
> >>>>
> >>>> Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should
> >>>> know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar.
> >>>> The bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all.
> >>>>
> >>>> Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient
> >>>> audio, the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive)
> >>>> and you will find your power drifting upward as you transmit.
> >>>>
> >>>> So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power
> >>>> will be uniform throughout the transmission.  With the K3 you must
> have
> >>>> sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they
> >>>> should.
> >>>> Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not
> control
> >>>> power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use
> >>>> that advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio
> >>>> drive to control the power output.  That just will not work with the
> K3.
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)

Bill Frantz
In reply to this post by Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT
On 4/3/13 at 3:47 PM, [hidden email] (Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT) wrote:

> Lyle answered me offlist and told me to RTFM, page 18.

And thank you Lyle for "The Fine Manual".

Bill, AE6JV

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz        |"We used to quip that "password" is the most common
408-356-8506       | password. Now it's 'password1.' Who said users haven't
www.pwpconsult.com | learned anything about security?" -- Bruce Schneier

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
12