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IMac pro RFI

VE3WDM

Greetings
My wife just purchased a new Imac desktop and with my KX1, K2 and K3 I am causing her screen to jump all around. She has a laptop mac along side and it is just fine as well as her Ipad. The antenna I have is a dipole in the attic and the other antenna is the High Sierra sidekick in the backyard. The output can go as low as 3 watts and it still gives her Mac grief. I have removed the mouse and keyboard and it does the same thing. I have also put clamp on chokes on the AC line. It seems that it is the Imac that is giving me the trouble as my desktop in the next bedroom has no trouble what so ever at any power I can deliver to the rigs. Any help would be appreciated.
Mike
VE3WDM
     
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Re: IMac pro RFI

george fritkin
Mike, all bands, any bands?  SSB and CW?  If you have a UPS, pug IMAC into it without plugging UPS into AC.  We have to find out if it is radiated or conducted RFI.  
And thanks for the info, we also have macbook pros and ipads here with no problems at 1500 watts pep.  I was going to buy a new imac desktop, but I am holding off now
73
George


--- On Mon, 8/23/10, Mike Weir <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Mike Weir <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] IMac pro RFI
To:
Date: Monday, August 23, 2010, 5:20 PM


Greetings
My wife just purchased a new Imac desktop and with my KX1, K2 and K3 I am causing her screen to jump all around. She has a laptop mac along side and it is just fine as well as her Ipad. The antenna I have is a dipole in the attic and the other antenna is the High Sierra sidekick in the backyard. The output can go as low as 3 watts and it still gives her Mac grief. I have removed the mouse and keyboard and it does the same thing. I have also put clamp on chokes on the AC line. It seems that it is the Imac that is giving me the trouble as my desktop in the next bedroom has no trouble what so ever at any power I can deliver to the rigs. Any help would be appreciated.
Mike
VE3WDM
                          
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Re: IMac pro RFI

VE3WDM
In reply to this post by VE3WDM
Hi George Sorry no ups here but I really should pick one up just in case of an outage. Any other step.
 
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Re: IMac pro RFI

george fritkin
This kind of problem is either real simple to solve or real difficult there is no in between.  I know that is not very technical, but it sometimes it is the nature or RFI.
  If you try any fixes, do them one at a time.  This way we will know which one works.  It is strange that all three radio do the same thing.  If you have no UPS, how about battery powering the K1 or the other radios and see if the problem is still there.  Again, we are trying to see if it a radiated or conducted problem.   
I am assuming that the radios and the computers do not share the same ac power circuit.  If I am wrong separate them
Good Luck  [you are going to need it!!]
George




--- On Mon, 8/23/10, VE3WDM <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: VE3WDM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] IMac pro RFI
To: 
Date: Monday, August 23, 2010, 5:35 PM


Hi George Sorry no ups here but I really should pick one up just in case of
an outage. Any other step.
 
--
View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/IMac-pro-RFI-tp5454871p5454901.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: IMac pro RFI

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by VE3WDM
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:20:27 -0400, Mike Weir wrote:

>My wife just purchased a new Imac desktop and with my KX1, K2 and K3 I am
>causing her screen to jump all around.

If just purchased, take it back and tell them to fix it or refund your
money. There is NO EXCUSE for RFI to a computer, and at 3 watts from an
antenna some distance from the computer it's a REAL RFI DOG!  

FWIW, RFI TO computers is fairly rare, except for sound cards, nearly all
of which have pin 1 problems.

There's a detailed RFI tutorial at http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

This forum is not the best place for RFI help -- but there is a very good
RFI reflector at contesting.com.

73, Jim Brown K9YC


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Re: IMac pro RFI

David Herring-3
In reply to this post by VE3WDM
Mike,

Anything else connected to the iMac?  You ruled out the keyboard and mouse, which is good...I have an iMac had the same problem and discovered it was my 'mighty mouse' that was the culprit -- seems the mighty mouse is a rather effective antenna!  Once I replaced the mouse with a generic mouse, I've never had another problem.  My iMac is within 2 feet of the rig and it's cabling.

If you can make her screen dance with as low as 3 watts, I can only guess you must have an unsuspecting radiator really close to the iMac?  I needed 40 - 50 watts to excite my mighty mouse!  Have you traced all wires in proximity to the iMac back to see if they come in close to feed lines, ground lines, or the rigs themselves?

What kind of balun do you use?  Is it a current balun?  Would help to reduce common mode currents on your feed line.

Returning the computer for a refund seems a bit rash to me...the real problem I would think, is that there is some amount of RF at your wife's computing position coming from somewhere, so unless you're trying to fry her (hi hi), that really does need to be worked out despite there being other computers unaffected by it.

Good luck!

73,
Dave
AH6TD


On Aug 23, 2010, at 2:20 PM, Mike Weir wrote:

>
> Greetings
> My wife just purchased a new Imac desktop and with my KX1, K2 and K3 I am causing her screen to jump all around. She has a laptop mac along side and it is just fine as well as her Ipad. The antenna I have is a dipole in the attic and the other antenna is the High Sierra sidekick in the backyard. The output can go as low as 3 watts and it still gives her Mac grief. I have removed the mouse and keyboard and it does the same thing. I have also put clamp on chokes on the AC line. It seems that it is the Imac that is giving me the trouble as my desktop in the next bedroom has no trouble what so ever at any power I can deliver to the rigs. Any help would be appreciated.
> Mike
> VE3WDM
>    
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Re: IMac pro RFI

Craig Smith
Make sure you pay attention to any sound system you may have hooked up to
it.  I was causing RFI to my wife's Imac with 100 W with the antennas about
40-50 ft away from it.  No RFI at all on my Dell machine right next to the
rig and 10 ft from the antennas.  Spent considerable time with ferrites, but
got it quiet now.  It's been quite awhile, but as I recall the biggest
contributor was the external speakers and sub-woofer she had attached.  They
were routing RF back into the computer.  Make sure you filter those kinds of
leads as well as the keyboard, modems, etc.  K9YC's site is the place to
look for "how to" info.

Bottom line here was that the Imac was more susceptible than any Windows box
I've had, but still could be quieted down. Too bad, as otherwise it is a
very nice computer.

73   Craig  AC0DS



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Re: IMac pro RFI

AC7AC
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Re: IMac pro RFI

Ramon Tristani
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
I have an iMac and a Macbook, both operating within 6 feet of the K3 which drives a 5BTV vertical in my backyard. I run the full 100 watts without any RFI to my Macs. Guess you may have a defective iMac that should be returned for exchange or refund. My iMac is connected to the same AC circuit as the K3 with no special or separate ground for the K3.

73s,
Ramon, KP4GE


On Aug 23, 2010, at 9:19 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:20:27 -0400, Mike Weir wrote:
>
>> My wife just purchased a new Imac desktop and with my KX1, K2 and K3 I am
>> causing her screen to jump all around.
>
> If just purchased, take it back and tell them to fix it or refund your
> money. There is NO EXCUSE for RFI to a computer, and at 3 watts from an
> antenna some distance from the computer it's a REAL RFI DOG!  
>
> FWIW, RFI TO computers is fairly rare, except for sound cards, nearly all
> of which have pin 1 problems.
>
> There's a detailed RFI tutorial at http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf
>
> This forum is not the best place for RFI help -- but there is a very good
> RFI reflector at contesting.com.
>
> 73, Jim Brown K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Re: IMac pro RFI

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by David Herring-3

>Returning the computer for a refund seems a bit rash to me...the real
>problem I would think, is that there is some amount of RF at your wife's
>computing position coming from somewhere,

NO, it is NOT harsh. She bought a computer, not a radio receiver, and it
should not act as a radio receiver. If it does, IT IS DEFECTIVE, either in
construction, or design, or both. Giving a manufacturer a pass for lousy
RFI design perpetuates the myth that it's somehow "overload." IT IS NOT.
IT IS POOR DESIGN. Never let a manufacturer make their problem your
problem.

BTW -- if you doubt me, check out the FCC website. Their official position
is that ALL interference experienced by NON-RADIO equipment is the fault
of the victim equipment. Period. And as Chair of the Technical Committee
on RFI of the Audio Engineering Society, I can say that that position is
entirely correct from an engineering point of view.

My RFI tutorial goes though most of the poor design, and outlines fixes
for some of them.

73, Jim Brown K9YC


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Re: IMac pro RFI

M0XDF
In reply to this post by VE3WDM
As others have said, the iMac is at fault - take it back and ask for a replacement unit. At least if that does the same thing, you know it's a design fault and you may then have to figure out where the RF is coming from or more likley, how it's getting into the Mac.

As with Ron, when I had my old G4 it was (is) fine, but then for a few years, then I bought 2 mighty mouse (mice?), both acted in the same way as Ron's and acted as if the two side buttons where pressed, causing Expose to fly the windows of the side of the screen. Disabling that action on the side buttons resolved it.
This was with just a little Power and on SSB or CW. I wasn't happy with the workaround, I complained to Apple about it. They had no idea what I was talking about, but did agree to exchange them for a Logitech Wireless KB/Mouse combo (which I'm very happy with, but they don't manufacture now).

I now have a iMac 2.8 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo with 24" screen for a couple of years, with the Logitech combo and no problems.

There is no excuse for a device failing due to low RFI (3W is low), might be excusable for 2kW, but at 3W, there is something wrong with the iMac or something getting the RF into it.
Have you removed the Ethernet connection too (assuming your using wired e/net)?

73 de M0XDF, K3 #174, P3 #108

--
When work is a pleasure, life is a joy! When work is a duty, life is
slavery. -Maxim Gorky, author (1868-1936)

On 24 Aug 2010, at 01:20, Mike Weir wrote:

>
> Greetings
> My wife just purchased a new Imac desktop and with my KX1, K2 and K3 I am causing her screen to jump all around. She has a laptop mac along side and it is just fine as well as her Ipad. The antenna I have is a dipole in the attic and the other antenna is the High Sierra sidekick in the backyard. The output can go as low as 3 watts and it still gives her Mac grief. I have removed the mouse and keyboard and it does the same thing. I have also put clamp on chokes on the AC line. It seems that it is the Imac that is giving me the trouble as my desktop in the next bedroom has no trouble what so ever at any power I can deliver to the rigs. Any help would be appreciated.
>

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Re: IMac pro RFI

Bill K9YEQ
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
The issue is not just the manufacturer, try explaining it to the wife.  :-)
I have argued with wife and neighbors over the years without success.  Being
technically correct may not be the fix to the "problem".   Glad the iMac
issue is fixed.  

Bill
K9YEQ
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] IMac pro RFI

>Returning the computer for a refund seems a bit rash to me...the real
>problem I would think, is that there is some amount of RF at your
>wife's computing position coming from somewhere,
BTW -- if you doubt me, check out the FCC website. Their official position
is that ALL interference experienced by NON-RADIO equipment is the fault of
the victim equipment. Period. And as Chair of the Technical Committee on RFI
of the Audio Engineering Society, I can say that that position is entirely
correct from an engineering point of view.

My RFI tutorial goes though most of the poor design, and outlines fixes for
some of them.

73, Jim Brown K9YC


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Re: IMac pro RFI

David Herring-3
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
For the benefit of others who may read this at a later date, I will just say that I am in agreement with what Jim says here.  The FCC's position on such things is well documented (albeit possibly not as enforced as it should be?).

I believe there are certain points of practicality that must prevail:

The FCC position on commercial electronics acting as unlawful receivers aside, we as hams still have the responsibility to run the cleanest stations we can.  This means that we should do everything practical to minimize the emission of RF in places where it does us no good.  If this means taking a little extra time to re-route cables and place appropriate RFI countermeasures in place before marching our electronics back to the vendor for refunds, then it's time well spent.  

This also serves to reduce RF exposure to the humans and animals in our households, too.  Even though we have all done our station assessments and deemed ourselves to be in compliance with the FCC's exposure guidelines (and we all have done this, right???), its always better to reduce exposure when we can.

And finally, it is well known that most all commercial electronics are ridiculously susceptible to RF -- certainly more so than they should or could be.  How they get away with it is a topic for another reflector.  Suffice to say that if we can reduce our unintended emissions enough so as to not affect this equipment, it's likely more convenient for us. While it's well within our legal right to return this "defective" equipment, it is not always in our best interest.  The time and energy spent returning the equipment, dealing with the inconvenience of finding a substitute, and/or the problems associated with not having the equipment at all, all must be accounted for.

This is OT, so I'll quit for now.  :-)

73 and Aloha,
Dave
AH6TD

On Aug 23, 2010, at 5:13 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

>
>> Returning the computer for a refund seems a bit rash to me...the real
>> problem I would think, is that there is some amount of RF at your wife's
>> computing position coming from somewhere,
>
> NO, it is NOT harsh. She bought a computer, not a radio receiver, and it
> should not act as a radio receiver. If it does, IT IS DEFECTIVE, either in
> construction, or design, or both. Giving a manufacturer a pass for lousy
> RFI design perpetuates the myth that it's somehow "overload." IT IS NOT.
> IT IS POOR DESIGN. Never let a manufacturer make their problem your
> problem.
>
> BTW -- if you doubt me, check out the FCC website. Their official position
> is that ALL interference experienced by NON-RADIO equipment is the fault
> of the victim equipment. Period. And as Chair of the Technical Committee
> on RFI of the Audio Engineering Society, I can say that that position is
> entirely correct from an engineering point of view.
>
> My RFI tutorial goes though most of the poor design, and outlines fixes
> for some of them.
>
> 73, Jim Brown K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Re: IMac pro RFI

K2QI
For what it's worth, I have a 2008 Mac Pro, home-brewed Windows 7 box, a
Lenovo T62p Thinkpad and a new 2010 Macbook Pro in my shack, and none have
ever experienced any RFI related problems at any power level up to 1200
watts.  This is with the antenna about 35 feet away.  In fact, the only
problem I've experienced has been noise coming through a pair of amplified
speakers that weren't properly isolated.

--
73 de James K2QI
President UNARC/4U1UN
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Re: IMac pro RFI

VE3WDM
In reply to this post by VE3WDM
Good afternoon all, just wanted to pass along the RFI problem to Julie's IMac has been solved. Due to the over whelming suggestions that it could be the Apple mouse it turns out that was the source of my trouble. The mouse has been replaced and all is well. I was emailing most if not all of you personally regarding your  reply's not wanting to tie up the reflector. If you would like a humorous account about my RFI vs IMac is on my blog.
Thanks again for all your time and help
Mike
This is a link to my blog
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Re: IMac pro RFI

baruchatta
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
Hi
Let me add my experiences at this later date.  My wife brought home her iMac 5.1 when her office closed.  She experienced the same screen jumping when I keyed my transmitter (100 watts with antenna just outside in the backyard).  I put the usual toroids around the power line and the keyboard and mouse.  Still jumping.  I tried removing the kb and mouse.  The jumping stopped.  I replaced the mouse, then the kb.  Still no jumping.  My only conclusion is that when the kb and/or mouse were plugged in to certain usb ports, the screen jumped, but when plugged into other usb ports, no problems.  Weird, of course. The toriods are still on the cords, but they are staying.  Except on 80 meters where there is still a prob.
W3TTT
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Re: IMac pro RFI

baruchatta
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
One more item - Even on 80 meters, I found that disconnecting the MOUSE stopped the jumping screen.  I wrapped the mouse cord in a coil, leaving just enough for the sweet woman to use it.  Problem solved even on 80.
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