K3 DSP processor speed

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K3 DSP processor speed

Robert Sands
I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are
10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not
that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is
consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why
not?
Bob
K7VO
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Robert Sands
K7VO
Olympia, WA
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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Chester Alderman
Maybe because Elecraft does not want to produce a rig that sells for
$14,500?

Tom - W4BQF


-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert
Sands
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are
10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not
that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is
consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why
not?
Bob
K7VO
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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Mike Harris-9
In reply to this post by Robert Sands
According to the review in the November RSGB magazine (RadCom) it hosts
three 32 bit floating point DSP units. Two clocked at 393MHz for the
receivers and the transmitter an one clocked at 370MHz for the spectrum
scope. Also two 24-bit DAC's.

I never use NR so essentially I don't really care if 2400 MFLOP devices
make a difference.

Occam's razor springs to mind  "It is vain to do with more what can be
done with fewer". Possibly less powerful DSP engines are becoming
obsolete, maintenance only devices.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 09/11/2015 18:32, Robert Sands wrote:
> I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are
> 10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not
> that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is
> consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why
> not?
> Bob
> K7VO
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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Elecraft mailing list
In reply to this post by Chester Alderman
Sound like a case of  " My you know what is bigger than your you know what "
Cause mine cost twice as much as yours! Nah nan nanna naw nah!

(((((73))))) Milverton / W9MMS

      From: Chester Alderman <[hidden email]>
 To: 'Robert Sands' <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
 Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:55 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed
   
Maybe because Elecraft does not want to produce a rig that sells for
$14,500?

Tom - W4BQF


-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert
Sands
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are
10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not
that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is
consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why
not?
Bob
K7VO
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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Kevin Stover
In reply to this post by Mike Harris-9
It reminds me of my computer overclocking days when bragging rights went
to the guy who could run the processor at the highest clock without
roasting throwing BSOD's or cooking the silicon. It's analogous to
today's PC gamers who overclock video cards to get the very last frame
per second on such and such game. Of course they can't actually SEE and
increase in frame rate above about 30 frames per second. They need
software to tell them they are getting 110 frames per second.

Some people grow up faster than others.

On 11/9/2015 5:04 PM, Mike Harris wrote:

> According to the review in the November RSGB magazine (RadCom) it
> hosts three 32 bit floating point DSP units. Two clocked at 393MHz for
> the receivers and the transmitter an one clocked at 370MHz for the
> spectrum scope. Also two 24-bit DAC's.
>
> I never use NR so essentially I don't really care if 2400 MFLOP
> devices make a difference.
>
> Occam's razor springs to mind  "It is vain to do with more what can be
> done with fewer". Possibly less powerful DSP engines are becoming
> obsolete, maintenance only devices.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike VP8NO
>


--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441

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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Bill-3
Some how I just am not all that impressed by those "fantastic" DSP
numbers. What does impress me is the absolute quality of the received
signals presented to my ears by the K3.

In about 55 years, my K3 is the most satisfying receiver I have ever
used - and I have had most of them along the way. Fed to my outboard
speakers, it sure makes for some super arm chair rag chews.

All I have to do to prove same, is to switch to one of my other rigs.
Then get on 75 meters at 7:30 PM and have some group move in right
beside you. With the K3, a twist of a knob - and they are no longer
beating my ears back - with one of my other rigs - well, not so easy on
the ears.

Yeah!!! Pass the Kool Aide!

Bill W2BLC K3-Line


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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Fred Townsend-2
In reply to this post by Robert Sands
Bob:
There are many many reasons why this is an apples to watermelon comparison.
Too many for discussion here. However two thoughts. In general the faster
the processor the 'more' chances of producing RFI. It could be Wayne and the
boys kept the processor speed low to reduce noise. Also in CMOS processors
the current drain goes up proportional to the square of clock frequency.
Simply faster processors take more power and with power comes the need for
fans and heatsinks. That's from the physical side. However the application
of more filters could possibly reduce noise from the software side but this
is far from a simple tradeoff.
Finally even if were a push between the K3 and 7851 have you ever heard of
anyone bragging about their service?
73
Fred, AE6QL

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert
Sands
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 1:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are
10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not
that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is
consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why
not?
Bob
K7VO
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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Jim Bolit
In reply to this post by Bill-3
Guys,

Legit question.  I am not surprised to see the "type" of answers given so
far.  

They were drowning in Kool Aide.

Jim
W6AIM

P.S.  My ears say the NR is only average for the K3.  I was running my
TS-480 when the K3 was in the shop, and I was impressed with the superior NR
of the low cost Kenwood TS-480



.



-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:34 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Some how I just am not all that impressed by those "fantastic" DSP numbers.
What does impress me is the absolute quality of the received signals
presented to my ears by the K3.

In about 55 years, my K3 is the most satisfying receiver I have ever used -
and I have had most of them along the way. Fed to my outboard speakers, it
sure makes for some super arm chair rag chews.

All I have to do to prove same, is to switch to one of my other rigs.
Then get on 75 meters at 7:30 PM and have some group move in right beside
you. With the K3, a twist of a knob - and they are no longer beating my ears
back - with one of my other rigs - well, not so easy on the ears.

Yeah!!! Pass the Kool Aide!

Bill W2BLC K3-Line


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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Jim Bolit
In reply to this post by Fred Townsend-2
Kenwood (even the "cheap" TS-480) has superior NR.  Even with just two
different, fixed, settings.

Jim
W6AIM

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Fred
Townsend
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:46 PM
To: 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Bob:
There are many many reasons why this is an apples to watermelon comparison.
Too many for discussion here. However two thoughts. In general the faster
the processor the 'more' chances of producing RFI. It could be Wayne and the
boys kept the processor speed low to reduce noise. Also in CMOS processors
the current drain goes up proportional to the square of clock frequency.
Simply faster processors take more power and with power comes the need for
fans and heatsinks. That's from the physical side. However the application
of more filters could possibly reduce noise from the software side but this
is far from a simple tradeoff.
Finally even if were a push between the K3 and 7851 have you ever heard of
anyone bragging about their service?
73
Fred, AE6QL

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert
Sands
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 1:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are
10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not
that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is
consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why
not?
Bob
K7VO
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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Jim Bolit
In reply to this post by Fred Townsend-2
Fred,

You are pulling what I call a "boogie man" ref the RFI.  It gets addressed
at the design stage.

Your fans and heatsink comments are also not valid.  Power is NOT dissipated
in an evenly distributed manner.  Again, it is an issue addressed at the
design stage.

You comment about service is valid, but, the goal is to never need the
service.  I have had no issues with the Kenwood service, my TS-480 just
works.  


OTOH, I put the TS-480 back into service when my K3 was sent back to the
factory.

Jim
W6AIM

.

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Fred
Townsend
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:46 PM
To: 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Bob:
There are many many reasons why this is an apples to watermelon comparison.
Too many for discussion here. However two thoughts. In general the faster
the processor the 'more' chances of producing RFI. It could be Wayne and the
boys kept the processor speed low to reduce noise. Also in CMOS processors
the current drain goes up proportional to the square of clock frequency.
Simply faster processors take more power and with power comes the need for
fans and heatsinks. That's from the physical side. However the application
of more filters could possibly reduce noise from the software side but this
is far from a simple tradeoff.
Finally even if were a push between the K3 and 7851 have you ever heard of
anyone bragging about their service?
73
Fred, AE6QL

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert
Sands
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 1:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are
10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not
that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is
consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why
not?
Bob
K7VO
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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

wayne burdick
Administrator
In reply to this post by Jim Bolit
The K3's DSP code is written in very efficient assembly language. It executes quickly, because it doesn't need the lengthy library-routine calls typical of the C or C++ code written for GHz-clock DSPs. The code is also extremely compact.

The crystal oscillator frequency is not a direct indicator of clock speed. An on-chip PLL multiples it to a much higher frequency. And again, efficient DSP code written for 48-kHz IF/12-kHz AF sample rates doesn't require a lot of time to execute.

This same philosophy applies to the K3's microcontroller. One result is that a K3 draws far less current in receive mode than most desktop transceivers.

The K3's NR has a lot of flexibility (with 32 settings), and some experimentation is required for best results.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Jim Bolit
Wayne,

Thanks for the unedited answer with no bias.

Jim
W6AIM


.


-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne
Burdick
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 6:46 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

The K3's DSP code is written in very efficient assembly language. It
executes quickly, because it doesn't need the lengthy library-routine calls
typical of the C or C++ code written for GHz-clock DSPs. The code is also
extremely compact.

The crystal oscillator frequency is not a direct indicator of clock speed.
An on-chip PLL multiples it to a much higher frequency. And again, efficient
DSP code written for 48-kHz IF/12-kHz AF sample rates doesn't require a lot
of time to execute.

This same philosophy applies to the K3's microcontroller. One result is that
a K3 draws far less current in receive mode than most desktop transceivers.

The K3's NR has a lot of flexibility (with 32 settings), and some
experimentation is required for best results.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Steve Ellington-2
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
The IC-7851 consumes *200 Watts in RECEIVE mode!*
The K3.....About 12 watts.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 9:46 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The K3's DSP code is written in very efficient assembly language. It
> executes quickly, because it doesn't need the lengthy library-routine calls
> typical of the C or C++ code written for GHz-clock DSPs. The code is also
> extremely compact.
>
> The crystal oscillator frequency is not a direct indicator of clock speed.
> An on-chip PLL multiples it to a much higher frequency. And again,
> efficient DSP code written for 48-kHz IF/12-kHz AF sample rates doesn't
> require a lot of time to execute.
>
> This same philosophy applies to the K3's microcontroller. One result is
> that a K3 draws far less current in receive mode than most desktop
> transceivers.
>
> The K3's NR has a lot of flexibility (with 32 settings), and some
> experimentation is required for best results.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

wayne burdick
Administrator
Steve Ellington wrote:


> The IC-7851 consumes *200 Watts in RECEIVE mode!*

So it can dampen shaking due to earthquakes and nearby teen house parties.


> The K3.....About 12 watts.

So you can run it from a solar panel after the aforementioned disasters.

Wayne
N6KR


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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Tim Tucker
While I appreciate the input from Wayne on the K3's programming
architecture (as well as the facts on the power consumption
characteristics), the reality is that many of us have identified other rigs
that have implemented NR in a way that produces results that are much more
satisfactory.  Comments from those that don't seem to have a use-case for
NR aren't really applicable to this particular topic, either.

Personally, I find the NR capabilities of the KX3 to be among the best and
most flexible that I've ever experienced, but also find the K3's
capabilities to be fairly anemic in comparison.  I would love to see the
KX3's approach implemented in the K3 - that would make for a VERY nice
upgrade, IMO.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Steve Ellington wrote:
>
>
> > The IC-7851 consumes *200 Watts in RECEIVE mode!*
>
> So it can dampen shaking due to earthquakes and nearby teen house parties.
>
>
> > The K3.....About 12 watts.
>
> So you can run it from a solar panel after the aforementioned disasters.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>



--
Owner, worldwidedx.com
AE6LX, Amateur Radio
AAR9GA, Army MARS
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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Gary Gregory-2
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
My DSP works great, it only took me several years of trying to get it to where it does what I need it to do.

Yeah, I'm pretty quick at figuring the black arts out eh?

73

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]>
Sent: ‎10/‎11/‎2015 1:10 PM
To: "Steve Ellington" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Steve Ellington wrote:


> The IC-7851 consumes *200 Watts in RECEIVE mode!*

So it can dampen shaking due to earthquakes and nearby teen house parties.


> The K3.....About 12 watts.

So you can run it from a solar panel after the aforementioned disasters.

Wayne
N6KR


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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

ae4pb
In reply to this post by Jim Bolit
Jim,
  Here's a non-KookAid question for you.

Just like in school..
Show your work.

You say that radio <insert make/model/version here> has better <insert
feature here> than the K3/K3S with latest hardware/firmware.
Please provide the data upon which you base this.
What you hear /think you hear is not valid data because operator skill comes
into play.
I'm no expert but have played with the K3S long enough to know the power of
it's NR is in finding the balance of settings to pull the desired signal out
of the noise.

Any system that only has a button for NR and lacks granular control of the
parameters can't possibly pull signals out under all circumstances when
compared to a system that allows for granular control.

Opinions aside.. please provide the data upon which your claims are based.

Claims without data are just opinion based on several factors; many of which
are out of the operators control and change over time.

No KoolAid, just facts. I don't know that the K3S is better. On paper a
receiver system is dealing with component noise, board noise, power noise,
dynamic range, overhead, sensitivity, gain..etc..

On my K3S when digging out signals I'm playing with RF gain, Roofing
filters, IF DSP Filtering, AGC Slope, AGC Threshold, AGC Time, and finally
NR DSP algorithm (of which the K3S has LOTS).
I have 2 main NR settings: One when I expect to have strong local signals
(e.g... contests) and one for normal use. When chasing weak signal DX I'll
play with settings to see what I can do.

You're lucky to have never had to send your Kenwood radio in for repair. You
typically end up sending it to a third party repair shop with the hopes they
know what they are doing and do more good than harm.


Jerry Moore
CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
Patriotic.

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 9:14 PM
To: 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Kenwood (even the "cheap" TS-480) has superior NR.  Even with just two
different, fixed, settings.

Jim
W6AIM

<cut>

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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Al Gulseth-2
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
Watch it Wayne, you almost made me do the proverbial spew on the keyboard with
that one HI HI!!

OTOH, a ham friend of mine a long time ago briefly lived in a trailer park
while he was going through some marital difficulties. He had his Swan 350 set
up there. A next trailer neighbor of his liked to listen to a rock FM station
at high volume fairly early in the morning. My friend told me that he'd
noticed a "swish" from the neighbor's stereo on a certain frequency when
tuning across 15M. One morning he got tired of the neighbor's concert, turned
on the Swan, moved down the band a ways and loaded it "full tilt", carefully
zero beat the suspect frequency, keyed the mic, and yelled "bleaah" or some
such into it. (He claimed he could hear himself coming through the neighbor's
stereo.) The rock station volume immediately went down and he never heard it
turned back up the rest of the time he lived there. Maybe Elecraft needs to
do some research to see if there are some frequencies where the KPA500 would
be effective in this way against nearby teen house parties ;-) However, I
doubt it would be effective against earthquakes though....

73, Al

On Mon November 9 2015 9:09:24 pm Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Steve Ellington wrote:
> > The IC-7851 consumes *200 Watts in RECEIVE mode!*
>
> So it can dampen shaking due to earthquakes and nearby teen house parties.
>
> > The K3.....About 12 watts.
>
> So you can run it from a solar panel after the aforementioned disasters.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

Jim Bolit
In reply to this post by ae4pb
Jer,

Perceived audio is just that.  Perception.  And to the individual, it is
*everything*.

Op skill does come into play, no doubt.

Types of noise come into play, no doubt.

The fact there are only two settings on the Kenwood does limit it's ability
to "work" under different noise condx.

The K3 is an excellent radio.  I bought one after using a friends at
Sweepstakes CW two years ago.  The only time I looked back was when I had to

hook up the Kenwood TS-480 and my perception is the NR was superior.

BTW, I sent the K3 back because of hiss in the audio with the audio gain
fully CCW.  Elecraft bent over backwards to find the issue, and advised they
compared to current production rigs, using an audio spectrum analyzer.  I
also sent the headphones to them in the event the complex impedance of them
would induce this hiss.  Yes, Elecraft service is second to none.

The radio still has hiss, so I put a resistive pad inline and the hiss is
gone and ride the audio at 12 noon.

Jim
W6AIM

P.S.  I do not subscribe to $75.00 per foot speaker cable  ;>)



.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Moore [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
[hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:20 AM
To: 'jim'; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Jim,
  Here's a non-KookAid question for you.

Just like in school..
Show your work.

You say that radio <insert make/model/version here> has better <insert
feature here> than the K3/K3S with latest hardware/firmware.
Please provide the data upon which you base this.
What you hear /think you hear is not valid data because operator skill comes
into play.
I'm no expert but have played with the K3S long enough to know the power of
it's NR is in finding the balance of settings to pull the desired signal out
of the noise.

Any system that only has a button for NR and lacks granular control of the
parameters can't possibly pull signals out under all circumstances when
compared to a system that allows for granular control.

Opinions aside.. please provide the data upon which your claims are based.

Claims without data are just opinion based on several factors; many of which
are out of the operators control and change over time.

No KoolAid, just facts. I don't know that the K3S is better. On paper a
receiver system is dealing with component noise, board noise, power noise,
dynamic range, overhead, sensitivity, gain..etc..

On my K3S when digging out signals I'm playing with RF gain, Roofing
filters, IF DSP Filtering, AGC Slope, AGC Threshold, AGC Time, and finally
NR DSP algorithm (of which the K3S has LOTS).
I have 2 main NR settings: One when I expect to have strong local signals
(e.g... contests) and one for normal use. When chasing weak signal DX I'll
play with settings to see what I can do.

You're lucky to have never had to send your Kenwood radio in for repair. You
typically end up sending it to a third party repair shop with the hopes they
know what they are doing and do more good than harm.


Jerry Moore
CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
Patriotic.

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 9:14 PM
To: 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Kenwood (even the "cheap" TS-480) has superior NR.  Even with just two
different, fixed, settings.

Jim
W6AIM

<cut>


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Re: K3 DSP processor speed

ae4pb
I'll make a few comments with information you likely already know and drop
the thread.
1. audio hiss is common with the largest contributor being particles
traversing the substrate layers of semi-conductors (you get it in tubes as
well, just not as much). The design keys being S/N ratio, dynamic range, and
gain. Any solution to remove hiss without consideration to S/N ratio and
gain results in loss of signal level. Hard to complain about weak signal
work if the system is degraded by mods/adjustments.
2. By default the K3S receive audio isn't optimal for everyone's ears and
dynamic range. That's likely why there's an audio equalizer for both receive
and transmit audio. If you've not adjusted that to optimize the audio to
your tastes then you're missing out.

I have different hearing issues in each ear. My wish is to be able to adjust
left /right audio independently with both a single receiver and with the sub
installed. I currently run with AFX on full delay. I usually hear signals on
my right ear not my left unless I adjust the equalizer. My right ear being
more sensitive than my left.

Show me an audio circuit with no hiss and I'll show you missing signal
level. For most audio applications this doesn't matter because there's ample
signal. When working weak signal it's all about balance and working the
edges. If you operate with all knobs cranked to the right I'd humbly and
respectfully suggest that you review your operating procedures regardless of
the radio you use.

Kenwood makes a good radio, however, I've NEVER had good luck with service
from them or Yaesu. Based on my experiences in forums, reflector, and
talking with other hams; Elecraft is rabidly good about support.

Jerry Moore
CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
Patriotic.

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 11:23 AM
To: [hidden email]; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands';
[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Jer,

Perceived audio is just that.  Perception.  And to the individual, it is
*everything*.

Op skill does come into play, no doubt.

Types of noise come into play, no doubt.

The fact there are only two settings on the Kenwood does limit it's ability
to "work" under different noise condx.

The K3 is an excellent radio.  I bought one after using a friends at
Sweepstakes CW two years ago.  The only time I looked back was when I had to

hook up the Kenwood TS-480 and my perception is the NR was superior.

BTW, I sent the K3 back because of hiss in the audio with the audio gain
fully CCW.  Elecraft bent over backwards to find the issue, and advised they
compared to current production rigs, using an audio spectrum analyzer.  I
also sent the headphones to them in the event the complex impedance of them
would induce this hiss.  Yes, Elecraft service is second to none.

The radio still has hiss, so I put a resistive pad inline and the hiss is
gone and ride the audio at 12 noon.

Jim
W6AIM

P.S.  I do not subscribe to $75.00 per foot speaker cable  ;>)



.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Moore [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
[hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:20 AM
To: 'jim'; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Jim,
  Here's a non-KookAid question for you.

Just like in school..
Show your work.

You say that radio <insert make/model/version here> has better <insert
feature here> than the K3/K3S with latest hardware/firmware.
Please provide the data upon which you base this.
What you hear /think you hear is not valid data because operator skill comes
into play.
I'm no expert but have played with the K3S long enough to know the power of
it's NR is in finding the balance of settings to pull the desired signal out
of the noise.

Any system that only has a button for NR and lacks granular control of the
parameters can't possibly pull signals out under all circumstances when
compared to a system that allows for granular control.

Opinions aside.. please provide the data upon which your claims are based.

Claims without data are just opinion based on several factors; many of which
are out of the operators control and change over time.

No KoolAid, just facts. I don't know that the K3S is better. On paper a
receiver system is dealing with component noise, board noise, power noise,
dynamic range, overhead, sensitivity, gain..etc..

On my K3S when digging out signals I'm playing with RF gain, Roofing
filters, IF DSP Filtering, AGC Slope, AGC Threshold, AGC Time, and finally
NR DSP algorithm (of which the K3S has LOTS).
I have 2 main NR settings: One when I expect to have strong local signals
(e.g... contests) and one for normal use. When chasing weak signal DX I'll
play with settings to see what I can do.

You're lucky to have never had to send your Kenwood radio in for repair. You
typically end up sending it to a third party repair shop with the hopes they
know what they are doing and do more good than harm.


Jerry Moore
CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
Patriotic.

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 9:14 PM
To: 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Kenwood (even the "cheap" TS-480) has superior NR.  Even with just two
different, fixed, settings.

Jim
W6AIM

<cut>


______________________________________________________________
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
delivered to [hidden email]

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