K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

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K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

ae4pb
I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how hard
it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM permanently
and switch to DV.

Jerry Moore
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324

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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Robert Nobis - N7RJN
Jerry,

Not sure that is a valid assumption when it comes to ham radio.

73,



Bob Nobis - N7RJN
[hidden email]


> On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:00, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how hard
> it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
> standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM permanently
> and switch to DV.
>
> Jerry Moore
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Bill Frantz
On 9/17/15 at 11:48 AM, [hidden email] (Robert Nobis) wrote:
See: <https://freedv.org/tiki-index.php>

I don't think this mode very popular yet, but it is attractive, taking less bandwidth than SSB.

73 Bill AE6JV

> Jerry,
>
> Not sure that is a valid assumption when it comes to ham radio.
>
> 73,
>
>
>
> Bob Nobis - N7RJN
> [hidden email]
>
>
> > On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:00, [hidden email] wrote:
> >
> > I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how hard
> > it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
> > standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM permanently
> > and switch to DV.
> >
> > Jerry Moore
> > AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324

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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Richard Fjeld-2
In reply to this post by ae4pb
I was in to freeDV a year or two ago, and it has a long way to go.
Still, it did work.

I'm told the bandwidth has increased since then from 1200 hertz to 1600
hertz at present, which will be an improvement.
At 1200 hertz, voices sounded robotic in nature.  it lost sync often
which may, or may not, have been due to the compression.

I haven't heard of the FCC's having ruled on it's mode and/or where if
permitted.  I haven't been keeping up with it either.

Dick, n0ce


On 9/17/2015 1:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how hard
> it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
> standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM permanently
> and switch to DV.
>
> Jerry Moore
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324
>
>

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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Robert Nobis - N7RJN
Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.


Bob Nobis - N7RJN
[hidden email]


> On Sep 17, 2015, at 17:49, Richard Fjeld <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I was in to freeDV a year or two ago, and it has a long way to go. Still, it did work.
>
> I'm told the bandwidth has increased since then from 1200 hertz to 1600 hertz at present, which will be an improvement.
> At 1200 hertz, voices sounded robotic in nature.  it lost sync often which may, or may not, have been due to the compression.
>
> I haven't heard of the FCC's having ruled on it's mode and/or where if permitted.  I haven't been keeping up with it either.
>
> Dick, n0ce
>
>
> On 9/17/2015 1:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how hard
>> it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
>> standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM permanently
>> and switch to DV.
>>
>> Jerry Moore
>> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Richard Fjeld-2
FreeDV does not require a repeater.


On 9/17/2015 8:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:

> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>
>
> Bob Nobis - N7RJN
> [hidden email]
>
>
>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 17:49, Richard Fjeld <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I was in to freeDV a year or two ago, and it has a long way to go. Still, it did work.
>>
>> I'm told the bandwidth has increased since then from 1200 hertz to 1600 hertz at present, which will be an improvement.
>> At 1200 hertz, voices sounded robotic in nature.  it lost sync often which may, or may not, have been due to the compression.
>>
>> I haven't heard of the FCC's having ruled on it's mode and/or where if permitted.  I haven't been keeping up with it either.
>>
>> Dick, n0ce
>>
>>
>> On 9/17/2015 1:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>> I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how hard
>>> it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
>>> standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM permanently
>>> and switch to DV.
>>>
>>> Jerry Moore
>>> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Don Wilhelm-4
In reply to this post by Robert Nobis - N7RJN
You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.  
Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk to
everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only talk
to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as you have
selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to shut out
those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.

I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my
not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:
> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>
>

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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Matthew Cook
In reply to this post by Robert Nobis - N7RJN
If you take a closer look at the spectral bandwidths of the current crop of
digital VHF/UHF voice systems and compare them to 10k1 NBFM I think you'll
be surprised.  Unless govt agencies start racking and stacking digtal LMR
systems without guard bands then there is no clear advantage.  The
technical requirements of each receiver goes through the roof with 10k1
systems as it.  However there is a strong desire from government agencies
to move toward encrypted communications, which is very easy with digital
LMR; basically you get it for free.  This does not relate to the amateur
service.

In terms of Digital voice replacing SSB that has a very long long way to
go.  In truth SSB is very difficult to beat in terms of spectral
efficiency.  SSB puts just enough power into the right spectrum for near
loss less communication.  When you try to stuff the equivalent power into a
low bit rate digital signal, the energy per bit is quite high, meaning
you've got to lower your bit rate substantially until the two powers (SSB
and DV) are the same.  At this low bit rate (<600bps) there is no avoiding
the donald duck or robotic voices at this point.  That pesky information
theory gets in the way.  Lots of great progress has been made in this
regard (i.e. Codec2), however it will be a while before the necessary
200-600MHz hard float DSP will be required in a K3S.  Besides I'm sure a
suitable retrofit DSP module can be squeezed in there somewhere when the
time comes.

73

Matthew
VK5ZM

On 18 September 2015 at 10:33, Robert Nobis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and
> UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>
>
> Bob Nobis - N7RJN
> [hidden email]
>
>
> > On Sep 17, 2015, at 17:49, Richard Fjeld <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I was in to freeDV a year or two ago, and it has a long way to go.
> Still, it did work.
> >
> > I'm told the bandwidth has increased since then from 1200 hertz to 1600
> hertz at present, which will be an improvement.
> > At 1200 hertz, voices sounded robotic in nature.  it lost sync often
> which may, or may not, have been due to the compression.
> >
> > I haven't heard of the FCC's having ruled on it's mode and/or where if
> permitted.  I haven't been keeping up with it either.
> >
> > Dick, n0ce
> >
> >
> > On 9/17/2015 1:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> >> I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how
> hard
> >> it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
> >> standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM
> permanently
> >> and switch to DV.
> >>
> >> Jerry Moore
> >> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Gary Gregory-2
In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
Don,

Absolutely spot on sir.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
Sent: ‎18/‎09/‎2015 11:30 AM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.  
Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk to
everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only talk
to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as you have
selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to shut out
those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.

I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my
not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:
> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>
>

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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

w5tvw
In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
I could not agree more Don!   There isn't much advantage for amateur
radio to digital voice operations.   Just another "kink in the wire"!
No advantage at all.  All the digital voice stuff I have heard sounds
terrible at times.  Motorola's system (proprietary no doubt!) can sound
absolutely awful when signal conditions are bad.

73, to all,

Sandy W5TVW

On 9/17/2015 8:28 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.
> Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
> That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk
> to everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only
> talk to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as
> you have selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to
> shut out those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.
>
> I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my
> not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:
>> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF
>> and UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Don Wilhelm-4
There are advantages to digital voice, but for Amateur Band use, I don't
think we are "there yet".  When we see an 'open source' digital voice
mode that is published and can be implemented by any amateur, then I may
change my position, but that is not the situation today.  I do not
believe that proprietary modes of any sort should be permitted on the
ham bands.

One characteristic of digital streaming 'anything' is that if the signal
'loses sync', things go to pot, and you have to wait until it syncs up
again.  With fading on an analog signal, you can usually fill in the
gaps, but with digital, it is all or nothing.  When it is "all", it is
great, but the gaps are annoying - plus the quality is determined by the
bit rate in the encoding/decoding algorithms.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/17/2015 11:16 PM, Sandy wrote:
> I could not agree more Don!   There isn't much advantage for amateur
> radio to digital voice operations.   Just another "kink in the wire"!
> No advantage at all.  All the digital voice stuff I have heard sounds
> terrible at times.  Motorola's system (proprietary no doubt!) can sound
> absolutely awful when signal conditions are bad.
>

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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Richard Fjeld-2
Yes he is.     Oh, to be that capable.


On 9/17/2015 11:53 PM, Walter Underwood wrote:

> FreeDV is open source. You can use the FreeDV API (http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=3469 <http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=3469>) or get a box that will implement it and can be updated with new protocols (http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?page_id=3902 <http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?page_id=3902>). Or you can download the FreeDV app. Or download the source, either one from here: http://freedv.org/tiki-index.php <http://freedv.org/tiki-index.php>
>
> Dave Rowe (VK5DGR)  is actively improving both the HF and VHF variants of FreeDV, with very interesting articles on his blog. He’s working on a low bitrate version for nasty HF signal paths (FreeDV 700), and is working on a VHF digital voice mode with two levels of fidelity always transmitted. When you get more signal, you get more fidelity (http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=3931 <http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=3931>).
>
> Here are some samples of the current 700 bitrate codec: http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4291 <http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4291>
>
> And some A/B comparison QSOs with SSB and FreeDV: http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4527 <http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4527>
>
> Dave is doing some very exciting stuff, I’m impressed. And it’s all free.
>
> wunder
> K6WRU
> CM87wj
> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
>

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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Matthew Cook
In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
Just to make sure we carry some Elecraft content you might like to look at
the following URL's

http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4584
http://www.areg.org.au/?p=1719

And the code for both the Codec2 and FreeDV is freely available here;

https://github.com/freedv

73

Matthew
VK5ZM


On 18 September 2015 at 14:23, Walter Underwood <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> FreeDV is open source. You can use the FreeDV API (
> http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=3469 <http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=3469>)
> or get a box that will implement it and can be updated with new protocols (
> http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?page_id=3902 <
> http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?page_id=3902>). Or you can download the
> FreeDV app. Or download the source, either one from here:
> http://freedv.org/tiki-index.php <http://freedv.org/tiki-index.php>
>
> Dave Rowe (VK5DGR)  is actively improving both the HF and VHF variants of
> FreeDV, with very interesting articles on his blog. He’s working on a low
> bitrate version for nasty HF signal paths (FreeDV 700), and is working on a
> VHF digital voice mode with two levels of fidelity always transmitted. When
> you get more signal, you get more fidelity (
> http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=3931 <http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=3931
> >).
>
> Here are some samples of the current 700 bitrate codec:
> http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4291 <http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4291>
>
> And some A/B comparison QSOs with SSB and FreeDV:
> http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4527 <http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=4527>
>
> Dave is doing some very exciting stuff, I’m impressed. And it’s all free.
>
> wunder
> K6WRU
> CM87wj
> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
>
> > On Sep 17, 2015, at 8:41 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > There are advantages to digital voice, but for Amateur Band use, I don't
> think we are "there yet".  When we see an 'open source' digital voice mode
> that is published and can be implemented by any amateur, then I may change
> my position, but that is not the situation today.  I do not believe that
> proprietary modes of any sort should be permitted on the ham bands.
> >
> > One characteristic of digital streaming 'anything' is that if the signal
> 'loses sync', things go to pot, and you have to wait until it syncs up
> again.  With fading on an analog signal, you can usually fill in the gaps,
> but with digital, it is all or nothing.  When it is "all", it is great, but
> the gaps are annoying - plus the quality is determined by the bit rate in
> the encoding/decoding algorithms.
> >
> > 73,
> > Don W3FPR
> >
> > On 9/17/2015 11:16 PM, Sandy wrote:
> >> I could not agree more Don!   There isn't much advantage for amateur
> radio to digital voice operations.   Just another "kink in the wire"!
> >> No advantage at all.  All the digital voice stuff I have heard sounds
> terrible at times.  Motorola's system (proprietary no doubt!) can sound
> >> absolutely awful when signal conditions are bad.
> >>
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Sverre Holm (LA3ZA)
In reply to this post by ae4pb
The country you may be referring to is Norway, where it has been decided to switch off all the biggest broadcasters from FM (88-108 MHz) in 2017 as the first country in the world, http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-32380222

It has been a controversial decision, I for one have critized the audio coding used for sacrificing audio quality in an Audio Engineering Society presentation in 2007 "Audio Quality on the Air in DAB Digital Radio in Norway" http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~sverre/papers/07_AES-DAB-Corrected.pdf

But I cannot quite see the relevance for VHF FM for hams.

ae4pb wrote
I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how hard
it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure what the
standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of FM permanently
and switch to DV.

Jerry Moore
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324
Sverre, LA3ZA

K2 #2198, K3 #3391,
LA3ZA Blog: http://la3za.blogspot.com,
LA3ZA Unofficial Guide to K2 modifications: http://la3za.blogspot.com/p/la3za-unofficial-guide-to-elecraft-k2.html
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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

alsopb
In reply to this post by Gary Gregory-2
Comparisons with single signal stations seems irrelevant.

Is anybody addressing the issue of QRM from other stations?   I suspect
digital will fold -- especially when one is trying to detect one out of
many or a station immersed in splatter from one or more stations.

The ability of the mind to pull out an individual station in the analog
QRMed world would seem to be lost.  This is best illustrated by people
being able to decode one voice of many at a party.

Here the switch to digital TV has been frustrating.  Stations which had
previously been received acceptably are spotty.   The digital cliff
effects are a killer.   The one station we really like to watch (PBS 55
miles away, two edge diffraction reception) is greatly effected by
day/night, the seasons and weather conditions. Admittedly some of
degradation is due to the move from VHF to UHF. However I suspect that
an analog transmission on the same frequencies would still be
watchable.   Part of the problem at UHF is enhancement of multipath
effects.  (Also DTV apparently is transmitting with 6db less power which
is supposed to be made up by the digital decoding at the reception end.
)  One sees this with a highly directional high gain antenna.   A
station will drop out and if you bump the antenna a few degrees, it will
return and then drop out.  It is a dance between the rotor to try to
keep a station locked.    If these multipath effects are so significant
for digital, single signal one might expect the problem to exist in
spades on HF.  Anybody who has looked at WWV carrier transmissions on a
high resolution FFT display can see several distinct signals due to
multipath shifted by up to 2 Hz at times.   The strongest of the bunch
moves from FFT bin to bin.  As a side note, those HDTV stations who
stayed on low VHF channels have had no end of problems.

Apples and oranges perhaps.....

73 de Brian/K3KO
On 9/18/2015 2:16 AM, Gary wrote:

> Don,
>
> Absolutely spot on sir.
>
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: ‎18/‎09/‎2015 11:30 AM
> To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?
>
> You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.
> Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
> That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk to
> everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only talk
> to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as you have
> selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to shut out
> those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.
>
> I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my
> not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:
>> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4419/10658 - Release Date: 09/17/15

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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Stephen Shearer
In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
from some reading I have done recently, D-star is an open source from
Japan ham community.

I agree, if it's not open, it's not ham radio.

We use FM on 10, 6, and 2 - modes included in the KX3/K3s, maybe the
future should include d-star.

73, steve WB3LGC

On 17-Sep-15 9:28 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.
> Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
> That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk to
> everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only talk
> to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as you have
> selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to shut out
> those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.
>
> I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my
> not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:
>> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF
>> and UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>>
>>
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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

ae4pb
In reply to this post by Sverre Holm (LA3ZA)
Let me re-phrase the question:

How hard would it be to implement a new mode on the K3S?

I am having a blast learning all of the menus and how to do things.. I never
actually realized how many functions and settings there are (even after
reading the manuals). There's a lot that doesn't seem to be in the book
(most are intuitive) and some that takes a bit of digging.
Jer

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sverre
Holm (LA3ZA)
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 2:33 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

The country you may be referring to is Norway, where it has been decided to
switch off all the biggest broadcasters from FM (88-108 MHz) in 2017 as the
first country in the world, http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-32380222

It has been a controversial decision, I for one have critized the audio
coding used for sacrificing audio quality in an Audio Engineering Society
presentation in 2007 "Audio Quality on the Air in DAB Digital Radio in
Norway" http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~sverre/papers/07_AES-DAB-Corrected.pdf

But I cannot quite see the relevance for VHF FM for hams.


ae4pb wrote
> I'm wondering since Digital voice is replacing FM around the world how
> hard it would be to add another mode to the K3S? I'm not even sure
> what the standards are but one country just set the date to get rid of
> FM permanently and switch to DV.
>
> Jerry Moore
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 10324





-----
Sverre, LA3ZA

K2 #2198, K3 #3391,
LA3ZA Blog: http://la3za.blogspot.com,
LA3ZA Unofficial Guide to K2 modifications:
http://la3za.blogspot.com/p/la3za-unofficial-guide-to-elecraft-k2.html
--
View this message in context:
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Digital-Voice-Mode-our-future-tp7607
903p7607943.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

ae4pb
In reply to this post by alsopb
My understanding is that we as a community "self-police". If we find an OM out of band or transmitting an out of spec signal we do the neighborly thing and help them fix it. I don't believe anyone (there are lids..other than them) intentionally transmits a poor signal. My view is that much of the younger generation are more into the operational than the "here's out it works and why". If you approach them with kindness and a helpful attitude you'll find that you can get it all done while making a new friend ;).

Jerry Moore
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 4:18 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Comparisons with single signal stations seems irrelevant.

Is anybody addressing the issue of QRM from other stations?   I suspect
digital will fold -- especially when one is trying to detect one out of many or a station immersed in splatter from one or more stations.

The ability of the mind to pull out an individual station in the analog QRMed world would seem to be lost.  This is best illustrated by people being able to decode one voice of many at a party.

Here the switch to digital TV has been frustrating.  Stations which had
previously been received acceptably are spotty.   The digital cliff
effects are a killer.   The one station we really like to watch (PBS 55
miles away, two edge diffraction reception) is greatly effected by day/night, the seasons and weather conditions. Admittedly some of degradation is due to the move from VHF to UHF. However I suspect that an analog transmission on the same frequencies would still be
watchable.   Part of the problem at UHF is enhancement of multipath
effects.  (Also DTV apparently is transmitting with 6db less power which is supposed to be made up by the digital decoding at the reception end.
)  One sees this with a highly directional high gain antenna.   A
station will drop out and if you bump the antenna a few degrees, it will return and then drop out.  It is a dance between the rotor to try to
keep a station locked.    If these multipath effects are so significant
for digital, single signal one might expect the problem to exist in spades on HF.  Anybody who has looked at WWV carrier transmissions on a high resolution FFT display can see several distinct signals due to
multipath shifted by up to 2 Hz at times.   The strongest of the bunch
moves from FFT bin to bin.  As a side note, those HDTV stations who stayed on low VHF channels have had no end of problems.

Apples and oranges perhaps.....

73 de Brian/K3KO
On 9/18/2015 2:16 AM, Gary wrote:

> Don,
>
> Absolutely spot on sir.
>
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: ‎18/‎09/‎2015 11:30 AM
> To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?
>
> You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.
> Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
> That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk
> to everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only
> talk to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as
> you have selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to
> shut out those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.
>
> I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my
> not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:
>> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4419/10658 - Release Date:
> 09/17/15

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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Joe Subich, W4TV-4
In reply to this post by Stephen Shearer

 > maybe the future should include d-star.

The baud rate of D-Star is too high for the current HF regulations.  In
addition, it is 6K00F7W ... F7W is only authorized above 51 MHz.

Finally, I'm not sure anyone would appreciate 6 kHz wide digital voice
signals in the already crowded HF bands.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 9/18/2015 7:49 AM, Stephen Shearer wrote:

> from some reading I have done recently, D-star is an open source from
> Japan ham community.
>
> I agree, if it's not open, it's not ham radio.
>
> We use FM on 10, 6, and 2 - modes included in the KX3/K3s, maybe the
> future should include d-star.
>
> 73, steve WB3LGC
>
> On 17-Sep-15 9:28 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.
>> Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
>> That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk to
>> everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only talk
>> to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as you have
>> selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to shut out
>> those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.
>>
>> I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my
>> not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:
>>> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF
>>> and UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>>>
>>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Re: K3 Digital Voice Mode - our future?

Robert Nobis - N7RJN
In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
Don,

To a certain extent, I agree with you. I also do not like proprietary technologies. However, if you look at the history of ham radio, many of the products and technologies we use today started out as “proprietary” technologies. Also, much of the history of ham radio is based on experimenting and trying new technologies and techniques.

At least one of these digital technologies, DMR, is no longer really proprietary. There are at least 20 manufacturers of DMR radios, worldwide.  True, DMR was not originally developed for use by hams, but it clearly is a product technology that many hams are now using on the VHF and UHF bands, even though I doubt we will ever see DMR on the HF bands.

73,


Bob Nobis - N7RJN
[hidden email]


> On Sep 17, 2015, at 18:28, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You have listed 3 digital voice modes that do not talk to each other.  Furthermore, I recall that these are proprietary coding schemes.
> That is not "Ham Radio" in my mind.  Ham Radio is "everyone can talk to everyone else", and those digital voice systems where you can only talk to those hams who have purchased the same brand of equipment as you have selected is more like commercial circuits where you want to shut out those who do not 'speak the same language that you do'.
>
> I don't think proprietary protocols belong on the ham bands - just my not so humble opinion.  Yes, I am also opposed to proprietary data modes.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 9/17/2015 9:03 PM, Robert Nobis wrote:
>> Take a look at the digital voice modes that are being used on the VHF and UHF bands: DMR, D-STAR and Fusion.
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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