K3: Odd ALC behavior

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K3: Odd ALC behavior

NK7Z
Hi,

I have an issue in  regards to obtaining 4 bars, and getting the 5th bar
of ALC to fluctuate while transmitting JT65.

I have plenty of audio, and can drive the ALC to 6 or more bars if I
turn things up.  However, as I get to 4 bars with the 5th flashing a
bit, the ALC starts to fluctuate between nothing and 4 or 5 bars...

That is to say, the ALC just goes to zero, no visible ALC, and then teh
ALC returns to 4 or 5 bars.  This happens across a one or two second
time span.

The ALC is at zero more than it is above zero most of the time.  If I
run it to five bars, with the fifth fluctuating, all is well, there
seems to be some sort of threshold at the 5th bar of ALC...

I have tried a number of things to try and triage this...  For instance:

1.  Running in "Transmit Test" mode to eliminate RF feedback.
2.  Upping the audio level feeding the K3.
3.  Reducing the audio level feeding the K3.
4.  Upping the line in on the K3 setup.
5.  Reducing the Line in on the K3 setup.
6.  Adjustment of the WSJT-X output level control, under conditions 2
through 5 above.

In all cases the above described behavior of the ALC dropping to zero
does not change in any way if I am at 5 or less bars.  That is to say,
if I take the ALC level to 4 bars, it starts dropping to zero more than
not...

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what this might be?

A a bit of history-- the computer and sound card were used on an Icom
756 ProIII, and there was never an issue like this...  The ALC was
adjustable from zero to too much on the Icom, with no dropouts...

--
73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net
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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Wes Stewart-2
Welcome to the club. I don't know what it is, but it is.

See my post "Soundcard levels" from July 16.

Maybe with your complaint there will be a response.

BTW, TX Test doesn't guarantee zero output.  I have another thread about that.

Crickets.

Wes  N7WS


On 8/3/2017 1:25 PM, Dave Cole wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have an issue in  regards to obtaining 4 bars, and getting the 5th bar of
> ALC to fluctuate while transmitting JT65.
>
> I have plenty of audio, and can drive the ALC to 6 or more bars if I turn
> things up.  However, as I get to 4 bars with the 5th flashing a bit, the ALC
> starts to fluctuate between nothing and 4 or 5 bars...
>
> That is to say, the ALC just goes to zero, no visible ALC, and then teh ALC
> returns to 4 or 5 bars.  This happens across a one or two second time span.
>
> The ALC is at zero more than it is above zero most of the time. If I run it to
> five bars, with the fifth fluctuating, all is well, there seems to be some
> sort of threshold at the 5th bar of ALC...
>
> I have tried a number of things to try and triage this...  For instance:
>
> 1.  Running in "Transmit Test" mode to eliminate RF feedback.
> 2.  Upping the audio level feeding the K3.
> 3.  Reducing the audio level feeding the K3.
> 4.  Upping the line in on the K3 setup.
> 5.  Reducing the Line in on the K3 setup.
> 6.  Adjustment of the WSJT-X output level control, under conditions 2 through
> 5 above.
>
> In all cases the above described behavior of the ALC dropping to zero does not
> change in any way if I am at 5 or less bars.  That is to say, if I take the
> ALC level to 4 bars, it starts dropping to zero more than not...
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to what this might be?
>
> A a bit of history-- the computer and sound card were used on an Icom 756
> ProIII, and there was never an issue like this...  The ALC was adjustable from
> zero to too much on the Icom, with no dropouts...
>

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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Don Wilhelm
In reply to this post by NK7Z
Dave,

Set the K3 LINE IN gain for a midrange value.  It has more resolution
there than at either a high or a low setting.
Then adjust the soundcard to obtain about 4 bars on the ALC meter and
"fine tune" that level with the LINE IN gain to get the 5th bar to flicker.
Note that this is the NO ALC point for the K3 - ALC action does not
start until the 5th bar.  The first 4 bars are there to help you adjust
the audio.

Too much audio from the sondcard can cause at least part of what you are
describing.  Are you using the 'speaker' output instead of LINE OUT on
the soundcard.  If speaker is your only choice see if you can set it for
headphones or amplified speakers.

I had a similar problem at Field Day this year - we were going to use
the logging computer for digital modes, but could not get the soundcard
in that computer to work - we pressed my laptop into service, but it has
no line in, and I did not bring an external soundcard along - had to use
one that another person had.
The output on that soundcard was so high, I had trouble adjusting
levels.  We finally put an attenuator in the soundcard output to tame
things.  It was still too much audio, but we managed with 4 bars of ALC,
but if we tried to get the 5th bar to flicker, it would light all the
way and sometimes the 6th bar would also light up.

73,
Don W3FPR


On 8/3/2017 4:25 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have an issue in  regards to obtaining 4 bars, and getting the 5th bar
> of ALC to fluctuate while transmitting JT65.
>
> I have plenty of audio, and can drive the ALC to 6 or more bars if I
> turn things up.  However, as I get to 4 bars with the 5th flashing a
> bit, the ALC starts to fluctuate between nothing and 4 or 5 bars...
>
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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Nr4c
In reply to this post by NK7Z
Lower the drive level from windows.  This will give you more control of the LinIn level on the K3(S).

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Aug 3, 2017, at 4:25 PM, Dave Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have an issue in  regards to obtaining 4 bars, and getting the 5th bar of ALC to fluctuate while transmitting JT65.
>
> I have plenty of audio, and can drive the ALC to 6 or more bars if I turn things up.  However, as I get to 4 bars with the 5th flashing a bit, the ALC starts to fluctuate between nothing and 4 or 5 bars...
>
> That is to say, the ALC just goes to zero, no visible ALC, and then teh ALC returns to 4 or 5 bars.  This happens across a one or two second time span.
>
> The ALC is at zero more than it is above zero most of the time.  If I run it to five bars, with the fifth fluctuating, all is well, there seems to be some sort of threshold at the 5th bar of ALC...
>
> I have tried a number of things to try and triage this...  For instance:
>
> 1.  Running in "Transmit Test" mode to eliminate RF feedback.
> 2.  Upping the audio level feeding the K3.
> 3.  Reducing the audio level feeding the K3.
> 4.  Upping the line in on the K3 setup.
> 5.  Reducing the Line in on the K3 setup.
> 6.  Adjustment of the WSJT-X output level control, under conditions 2 through 5 above.
>
> In all cases the above described behavior of the ALC dropping to zero does not change in any way if I am at 5 or less bars.  That is to say, if I take the ALC level to 4 bars, it starts dropping to zero more than not...
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to what this might be?
>
> A a bit of history-- the computer and sound card were used on an Icom 756 ProIII, and there was never an issue like this...  The ALC was adjustable from zero to too much on the Icom, with no dropouts...
>
> --
> 73s and thanks,
> Dave
> NK7Z
> http://www.nk7z.net
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Bob McGraw - K4TAX
In reply to this post by Wes Stewart-2
There's actually 3 places in the system where the audio level for
transmit must be adjusted correctly.

(a)  SPEAKER  -  Just left click on the speaker ICON and set the level
for about 35%.   Or right click on the speaker ICON, then select
Playback devices.   Click on the one being used, normally Speakers USB
Audio CODEC, select this and then select Properties and then Levels.  
You can adjust the level from here.  Again about -18 dB although your
level may vary.

(b)  The PWR slider on WSJT-X  --  I find this to run about 50% to 75%
however {see C below}

(c) The Line Gain in the K3S.   I use a value of 30.

All three of the above will affect the ALC number of bars.  If any of
the values are at either the extreme minimum or extreme maximum values,
you'll likely have somewhat a challenge in getting the levels correct
and stable.

Also be advised if you should use the computer of other reasons which
require support of the audio system, you may find that the levels have
changed.   No fault of the radio, no fault of the WSJT-X application but
just the way Windows works.  Just remember the approximate values and
where to change and set them.

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 8/3/2017 4:14 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:

> Welcome to the club. I don't know what it is, but it is.
>
> See my post "Soundcard levels" from July 16.
>
> Maybe with your complaint there will be a response.
>
> BTW, TX Test doesn't guarantee zero output.  I have another thread
> about that.
>
> Crickets.
>
> Wes  N7WS
>
>


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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Steve Lund
In reply to this post by NK7Z
Dave,

I have exactly the same problem. For me it does not occur with RTTY. That
seems to be solid. JT65 and FT8 really show the problem. When the problem
occurs I can often make a RTTY transmission and suddenly the ALC shows for
FT8/JT65.

I have multiple soundcards in my computer and in theory the windows
'sounds' are going to another soundcard. But, it has always seemed like the
problem occurs after I've gone on the internet and a website has sound on
it.

I'm going to try K4TAX's solution. When 'working' my K3 Line In is 4 or so;
WSJT-X is 70% and Speaker is 100%.

Let us know if you get a stable solution.

Steve, K6UM

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Dave Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have an issue in  regards to obtaining 4 bars, and getting the 5th bar
> of ALC to fluctuate while transmitting JT65.
>
> I have plenty of audio, and can drive the ALC to 6 or more bars if I turn
> things up.  However, as I get to 4 bars with the 5th flashing a bit, the
> ALC starts to fluctuate between nothing and 4 or 5 bars...
>
> That is to say, the ALC just goes to zero, no visible ALC, and then teh
> ALC returns to 4 or 5 bars.  This happens across a one or two second time
> span.
>
> The ALC is at zero more than it is above zero most of the time.  If I run
> it to five bars, with the fifth fluctuating, all is well, there seems to be
> some sort of threshold at the 5th bar of ALC...
>
> I have tried a number of things to try and triage this...  For instance:
>
> 1.  Running in "Transmit Test" mode to eliminate RF feedback.
> 2.  Upping the audio level feeding the K3.
> 3.  Reducing the audio level feeding the K3.
> 4.  Upping the line in on the K3 setup.
> 5.  Reducing the Line in on the K3 setup.
> 6.  Adjustment of the WSJT-X output level control, under conditions 2
> through 5 above.
>
> In all cases the above described behavior of the ALC dropping to zero does
> not change in any way if I am at 5 or less bars.  That is to say, if I take
> the ALC level to 4 bars, it starts dropping to zero more than not...
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to what this might be?
>
> A a bit of history-- the computer and sound card were used on an Icom 756
> ProIII, and there was never an issue like this...  The ALC was adjustable
> from zero to too much on the Icom, with no dropouts...
>
> --
> 73s and thanks,
> Dave
> NK7Z
> http://www.nk7z.net
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

ve3ibw
In reply to this post by NK7Z
​Hi Dave,

I was about to write about overdriving your Elecraft transceiver via the
computer sound card output and what that can do to the ALC readout (for me
on my kx3: cause the ALC meter to display nothing), but it sounds like you
are already aware of this fact and have tried to adjust so that you achieve
4-5 bars.

Not sure what OS you are running, but it doesn't matter really I guess.  Do
you know if any of the sounds the OS makes are directed through the same
sound card as you send your JT65 transmissions?  A long shot to be sure as
I think you are able to recreate this situation whenever and you have some
regularity to the issue you are seeing.

Have you tried to hook-up a small speaker to the sound card output and
listen to what is transmitted to see if the tones are a constant volume or
do you hear drop-outs interspersed throughout the transmit period?

regards,
Brian
VE3IBW
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Regards,
Brian
VE3IBW
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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Don Wilhelm
In reply to this post by Steve Lund
Steve,

Those settings are too extreme - they need to be more mid-range.
Set the K3 LINE IN gain to something mid-range (about 30), then reduce
the soundcard and WSJT-X settings to about 50% and give it a try.
Adjust the computer soundcard and WSJT-X settings to produce 4 bars on
the ALC meter, then fine-tune the adjustment with the K3 LINE IN gain.

If you use other digital modes in addition to WSJT-X, pick one without
the application slider to adjust the soundcard only for the 4 bars with
the 5th flickering.
If you do that, then go back to WSJT-X and adjust its slider to give you
the 4 bars with the 5th bar flickering.
Remember the soundcard and WSJT-X settings for the next time.

The problem is that WSJT-X tries to make it "easy" for most transceivers
which will use the audio level to control the power output.
That does not work well with Elecraft transceivers which will try
continuously to adjust the drive level to produce the power output set
by the POWER knob.  The result with insufficient audio is "Power hunting".
With Elecraft gear, set the audio level correctly - leave it there -
and adjust the desired power with the POWER knob.  In other words,
ignore the internet and often the application software instructions
which typically say to set the power to the maximum and adjust the power
with the audio level.  That just does not work with Elecraft gear which
uses a different (and better) power control system.

That applies to all soundcard data modes, and is not unique to WSJT-X.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/3/2017 7:00 PM, Steve Lund wrote:

> Dave,
>
> I have exactly the same problem. For me it does not occur with RTTY. That
> seems to be solid. JT65 and FT8 really show the problem. When the problem
> occurs I can often make a RTTY transmission and suddenly the ALC shows for
> FT8/JT65.
>
> I have multiple soundcards in my computer and in theory the windows
> 'sounds' are going to another soundcard. But, it has always seemed like the
> problem occurs after I've gone on the internet and a website has sound on
> it.
>
> I'm going to try K4TAX's solution. When 'working' my K3 Line In is 4 or so;
> WSJT-X is 70% and Speaker is 100%.
>
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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Bob McGraw - K4TAX
In reply to this post by Steve Lund
In RTTY are you using FSK or AFSK?

I'm surprised that you find the SPEAKER level at 100% as necessary.   Of
course different sound card in computers behave differently.      Also
the Line In at 4 sounds awfully low.   I'd think more toward mid way is
better with better resolution in regard to level changes.    Perhaps
down with the SPEAKER level and up with the Line In level on the K3.

All of this is not just setting a matter of levels.........it is a
balancing act where they all must be in the correct range to finesse
performance.

73

Bob,


On 8/3/2017 6:00 PM, Steve Lund wrote:

> Dave,
>
> I have exactly the same problem. For me it does not occur with RTTY. That
> seems to be solid. JT65 and FT8 really show the problem. When the problem
> occurs I can often make a RTTY transmission and suddenly the ALC shows for
> FT8/JT65.
>
> I have multiple soundcards in my computer and in theory the windows
> 'sounds' are going to another soundcard. But, it has always seemed like the
> problem occurs after I've gone on the internet and a website has sound on
> it.
>
> I'm going to try K4TAX's solution. When 'working' my K3 Line In is 4 or so;
> WSJT-X is 70% and Speaker is 100%.
>
> Let us know if you get a stable solution.
>
> Steve, K6UM
>
> On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Dave Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>


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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Bob McGraw - K4TAX
In reply to this post by ve3ibw
Better yet, just turn on the MON function on the radio and listen to the
tones.  They must be perfectly clear and clean.    And yes, I've found
that over driving the sound card will do really funny things to the ALC
and its display.    Start low and work your way up.   Remember there are
3 places that likely need adjusting, not just one.

73

Bob, K4TAX



On 8/3/2017 6:03 PM, Brian Waterworth wrote:

> ​Hi Dave,
>
> I was about to write about overdriving your Elecraft transceiver via the
> computer sound card output and what that can do to the ALC readout (for me
> on my kx3: cause the ALC meter to display nothing), but it sounds like you
> are already aware of this fact and have tried to adjust so that you achieve
> 4-5 bars.
>
> Not sure what OS you are running, but it doesn't matter really I guess.  Do
> you know if any of the sounds the OS makes are directed through the same
> sound card as you send your JT65 transmissions?  A long shot to be sure as
> I think you are able to recreate this situation whenever and you have some
> regularity to the issue you are seeing.
>
> Have you tried to hook-up a small speaker to the sound card output and
> listen to what is transmitted to see if the tones are a constant volume or
> do you hear drop-outs interspersed throughout the transmit period?
>
> regards,
> Brian
> VE3IBW
> _


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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Devin Butterfield
In reply to this post by NK7Z
Hi,

I’ve seen the same behavior when running digital modes on my KX3. It seems like maybe it does that (dropping to zero) when overdriven? Just a guess.

Regards, Devin / K6DRS

> On Aug 3, 2017, at 1:25 PM, Dave Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have an issue in  regards to obtaining 4 bars, and getting the 5th bar of ALC to fluctuate while transmitting JT65.
>
> I have plenty of audio, and can drive the ALC to 6 or more bars if I turn things up.  However, as I get to 4 bars with the 5th flashing a bit, the ALC starts to fluctuate between nothing and 4 or 5 bars...
>
> That is to say, the ALC just goes to zero, no visible ALC, and then teh ALC returns to 4 or 5 bars.  This happens across a one or two second time span.
>
> The ALC is at zero more than it is above zero most of the time.  If I run it to five bars, with the fifth fluctuating, all is well, there seems to be some sort of threshold at the 5th bar of ALC...
>
> I have tried a number of things to try and triage this...  For instance:
>
> 1.  Running in "Transmit Test" mode to eliminate RF feedback.
> 2.  Upping the audio level feeding the K3.
> 3.  Reducing the audio level feeding the K3.
> 4.  Upping the line in on the K3 setup.
> 5.  Reducing the Line in on the K3 setup.
> 6.  Adjustment of the WSJT-X output level control, under conditions 2 through 5 above.
>
> In all cases the above described behavior of the ALC dropping to zero does not change in any way if I am at 5 or less bars.  That is to say, if I take the ALC level to 4 bars, it starts dropping to zero more than not...
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to what this might be?
>
> A a bit of history-- the computer and sound card were used on an Icom 756 ProIII, and there was never an issue like this...  The ALC was adjustable from zero to too much on the Icom, with no dropouts...
>
> --
> 73s and thanks,
> Dave
> NK7Z
> http://www.nk7z.net
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

NK7Z
Thanks to all for the sheer number and breadth of answers...  Rather
than answer each one, and create a huge number of posts, I will try and
answer all here...

I have done all the steps outlined i the posts here before, and have
tried them again today.

Output from the computer is sitting dead center, line in was sitting at
27, and the power slider on WSJT-X is sitting at 4/5th full.

I took a different sound card program, (MixW in RTTY), and I got the
same behavior at 5 bars, the meter shows 5 bars, or no bars going
between those conditions about once or twice a second randomly.

If I increase ANY of the audio controls it drops out of that mode, and
acts just as Elecraft say to set things, just one bar higher, i.e. sits
at 5 bars, and the 6th flashes...

No combination I can create of the input, or output controls will stop this.

I also tried adjusting the power controls set a 1 watt, and at 50 watts.
  The power control makes zero difference in how it behaves.  In fact if
I am in TEST TRANSMIT mode the problem shows...

Listening to the computer output via MON-- sounds perfect...

I may next get the scope out again, and start looking at things again...
  I doubt it is the sound card changing levels because the issue goes
away if I turn up LINE IN on the K3...

I am still at a loss as to what is causing this issue.  I am pretty sure
it is an artifact of something happening in the K3, but for the life of
me I can't figure it out.

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net
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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Ken Chandler
Don't drop this thread Wayne! Theirs something we can all learn about here!!

Ken.. G0ORH

Sent from my iPad


> On 4 Aug 2017, at 05:52, Dave Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks to all for the sheer number and breadth of answers...  Rather than answer each one, and create a huge number of posts, I will try and answer all here...
>
> I have done all the steps outlined i the posts here before, and have tried them again today.
>
> Output from the computer is sitting dead center, line in was sitting at 27, and the power slider on WSJT-X is sitting at 4/5th full.
>
> I took a different sound card program, (MixW in RTTY), and I got the same behavior at 5 bars, the meter shows 5 bars, or no bars going between those conditions about once or twice a second randomly.
>
> If I increase ANY of the audio controls it drops out of that mode, and acts just as Elecraft say to set things, just one bar higher, i.e. sits at 5 bars, and the 6th flashes...
>
> No combination I can create of the input, or output controls will stop this.
>
> I also tried adjusting the power controls set a 1 watt, and at 50 watts.  The power control makes zero difference in how it behaves.  In fact if I am in TEST TRANSMIT mode the problem shows...
>
> Listening to the computer output via MON-- sounds perfect...
>
> I may next get the scope out again, and start looking at things again...  I doubt it is the sound card changing levels because the issue goes away if I turn up LINE IN on the K3...
>
> I am still at a loss as to what is causing this issue.  I am pretty sure it is an artifact of something happening in the K3, but for the life of me I can't figure it out.
>
> 73s and thanks,
> Dave
> NK7Z
> http://www.nk7z.net
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Glenn Anderson
In reply to this post by NK7Z
You guys are over-thinking this "issue". Just set whatever combination of
level controls it takes to get four solid bars and a flashing fifth on the
ALC and get on with it.....that works for me.

See Y'all on FT8!

Glenn WB5TUF

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 11:52 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Odd ALC behavior

Thanks to all for the sheer number and breadth of answers...  Rather than
answer each one, and create a huge number of posts, I will try and answer
all here...

I have done all the steps outlined i the posts here before, and have tried
them again today.

Output from the computer is sitting dead center, line in was sitting at 27,
and the power slider on WSJT-X is sitting at 4/5th full.

I took a different sound card program, (MixW in RTTY), and I got the same
behavior at 5 bars, the meter shows 5 bars, or no bars going between those
conditions about once or twice a second randomly.

If I increase ANY of the audio controls it drops out of that mode, and acts
just as Elecraft say to set things, just one bar higher, i.e. sits at 5
bars, and the 6th flashes...

No combination I can create of the input, or output controls will stop this.

I also tried adjusting the power controls set a 1 watt, and at 50 watts.
  The power control makes zero difference in how it behaves.  In fact if I
am in TEST TRANSMIT mode the problem shows...

Listening to the computer output via MON-- sounds perfect...

I may next get the scope out again, and start looking at things again...
  I doubt it is the sound card changing levels because the issue goes away
if I turn up LINE IN on the K3...

I am still at a loss as to what is causing this issue.  I am pretty sure it
is an artifact of something happening in the K3, but for the life of me I
can't figure it out.

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
delivered to [hidden email]

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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

NK7Z
Hi Glenn,

Respectfully, the issue, as already stated a few times, in several
messages, is not that no one knows what to adjust, and we are all over
thinking how to fix this, but that it is not possible to get the desired
results, no matter what one adjusts.

I have adjusted all possible combinations of level controls-- LINE IN on
the K3, the sound card out on the computer, and the Power Out on WSJT-X,
to get to the desired results, and have failed.

Given that I am a pretty creative fellow, and spend decades in the
Electronics industry, I suspect I am doing this correctly, so no, I am
pretty sure this is not a case of over thinking, but of something not
visible happening.

I just read Ken's post of July 16th, and yes Ken's problem sounds like
the same issue I have-- as one approaches the correct settings, the K3
jumps to instantly to 5 bars, skipping 4 bars, or as you lower any input
to the K3, the ALC actions simply stops at 5 bars...  Then te ALC levels
start to pump, while power out stays the same...

I have heard this described as Power Hunting before, but in my case, it
seems totally disconnected from any power settings I run.  I have tried
everything from 1 watt to 100 watts, and the behavior never changes.

Alas, I fear I will just continue running with a bit of ALC, which I
don't want to do...  I would like to set it up as per Elecraft
recommendations, but that seems impossible.


73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 08/04/2017 05:11 AM, Glenn Anderson wrote:

> You guys are over-thinking this "issue". Just set whatever combination of
> level controls it takes to get four solid bars and a flashing fifth on the
> ALC and get on with it.....that works for me.
>
> See Y'all on FT8!
>
> Glenn WB5TUF
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 11:52 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Odd ALC behavior
>
> Thanks to all for the sheer number and breadth of answers...  Rather than
> answer each one, and create a huge number of posts, I will try and answer
> all here...
>
> I have done all the steps outlined i the posts here before, and have tried
> them again today.
>
> Output from the computer is sitting dead center, line in was sitting at 27,
> and the power slider on WSJT-X is sitting at 4/5th full.
>
> I took a different sound card program, (MixW in RTTY), and I got the same
> behavior at 5 bars, the meter shows 5 bars, or no bars going between those
> conditions about once or twice a second randomly.
>
> If I increase ANY of the audio controls it drops out of that mode, and acts
> just as Elecraft say to set things, just one bar higher, i.e. sits at 5
> bars, and the 6th flashes...
>
> No combination I can create of the input, or output controls will stop this.
>
> I also tried adjusting the power controls set a 1 watt, and at 50 watts.
>    The power control makes zero difference in how it behaves.  In fact if I
> am in TEST TRANSMIT mode the problem shows...
>
> Listening to the computer output via MON-- sounds perfect...
>
> I may next get the scope out again, and start looking at things again...
>    I doubt it is the sound card changing levels because the issue goes away
> if I turn up LINE IN on the K3...
>
> I am still at a loss as to what is causing this issue.  I am pretty sure it
> is an artifact of something happening in the K3, but for the life of me I
> can't figure it out.
>
> 73s and thanks,
> Dave
> NK7Z
> http://www.nk7z.net
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
> delivered to [hidden email]
>
______________________________________________________________
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Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Glenn Anderson
OK...so here's how I do it...

1. Press the "tune" button on the K3.
2. Set output power for a convenient reading on your wattmeter (50 watts). Exit "tune" mode.
3. Activate the "tune" function on WSJL or send a test tone from your favorite digital program.
4. Adjust whatever the series of audio controls that you have to make the output power match the value in step 2.
5. Exit test mode.
6. Operate

I don't pay any attention to the ALC meter after this point. For the record, mine seems to flash between one and four bars.

YMMV

Glenn WB5TUF

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Cole [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2017 7:54 AM
To: Glenn Anderson <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Odd ALC behavior

Hi Glenn,

Respectfully, the issue, as already stated a few times, in several messages, is not that no one knows what to adjust, and we are all over thinking how to fix this, but that it is not possible to get the desired results, no matter what one adjusts.

I have adjusted all possible combinations of level controls-- LINE IN on the K3, the sound card out on the computer, and the Power Out on WSJT-X, to get to the desired results, and have failed.

Given that I am a pretty creative fellow, and spend decades in the Electronics industry, I suspect I am doing this correctly, so no, I am pretty sure this is not a case of over thinking, but of something not visible happening.

I just read Ken's post of July 16th, and yes Ken's problem sounds like the same issue I have-- as one approaches the correct settings, the K3 jumps to instantly to 5 bars, skipping 4 bars, or as you lower any input to the K3, the ALC actions simply stops at 5 bars...  Then te ALC levels start to pump, while power out stays the same...

I have heard this described as Power Hunting before, but in my case, it seems totally disconnected from any power settings I run.  I have tried everything from 1 watt to 100 watts, and the behavior never changes.

Alas, I fear I will just continue running with a bit of ALC, which I don't want to do...  I would like to set it up as per Elecraft recommendations, but that seems impossible.


73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 08/04/2017 05:11 AM, Glenn Anderson wrote:

> You guys are over-thinking this "issue". Just set whatever combination
> of level controls it takes to get four solid bars and a flashing fifth
> on the ALC and get on with it.....that works for me.
>
> See Y'all on FT8!
>
> Glenn WB5TUF
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 11:52 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Odd ALC behavior
>
> Thanks to all for the sheer number and breadth of answers...  Rather
> than answer each one, and create a huge number of posts, I will try
> and answer all here...
>
> I have done all the steps outlined i the posts here before, and have
> tried them again today.
>
> Output from the computer is sitting dead center, line in was sitting
> at 27, and the power slider on WSJT-X is sitting at 4/5th full.
>
> I took a different sound card program, (MixW in RTTY), and I got the
> same behavior at 5 bars, the meter shows 5 bars, or no bars going
> between those conditions about once or twice a second randomly.
>
> If I increase ANY of the audio controls it drops out of that mode, and
> acts just as Elecraft say to set things, just one bar higher, i.e.
> sits at 5 bars, and the 6th flashes...
>
> No combination I can create of the input, or output controls will stop this.
>
> I also tried adjusting the power controls set a 1 watt, and at 50 watts.
>    The power control makes zero difference in how it behaves.  In fact
> if I am in TEST TRANSMIT mode the problem shows...
>
> Listening to the computer output via MON-- sounds perfect...
>
> I may next get the scope out again, and start looking at things again...
>    I doubt it is the sound card changing levels because the issue goes
> away if I turn up LINE IN on the K3...
>
> I am still at a loss as to what is causing this issue.  I am pretty
> sure it is an artifact of something happening in the K3, but for the
> life of me I can't figure it out.
>
> 73s and thanks,
> Dave
> NK7Z
> http://www.nk7z.net
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]
>

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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

NK7Z
Hi Glen,

Thank you for the info, that is essentially what I am doing.  I am
concerned because it is not as Elecraft recommends for cleanest signal.
I will probably go back to operating with number 5 solid, and number 6
flickering...  I have been able to not find a solution for this.  Many
thanks to all who responded to my request.

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 08/04/2017 09:18 AM, Glenn Anderson wrote:

> OK...so here's how I do it...
>
> 1. Press the "tune" button on the K3.
> 2. Set output power for a convenient reading on your wattmeter (50 watts). Exit "tune" mode.
> 3. Activate the "tune" function on WSJL or send a test tone from your favorite digital program.
> 4. Adjust whatever the series of audio controls that you have to make the output power match the value in step 2.
> 5. Exit test mode.
> 6. Operate
>
> I don't pay any attention to the ALC meter after this point. For the record, mine seems to flash between one and four bars.
>
> YMMV
>
> Glenn WB5TUF
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Cole [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Friday, August 04, 2017 7:54 AM
> To: Glenn Anderson <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Odd ALC behavior
>
> Hi Glenn,
>
> Respectfully, the issue, as already stated a few times, in several messages, is not that no one knows what to adjust, and we are all over thinking how to fix this, but that it is not possible to get the desired results, no matter what one adjusts.
>
> I have adjusted all possible combinations of level controls-- LINE IN on the K3, the sound card out on the computer, and the Power Out on WSJT-X, to get to the desired results, and have failed.
>
> Given that I am a pretty creative fellow, and spend decades in the Electronics industry, I suspect I am doing this correctly, so no, I am pretty sure this is not a case of over thinking, but of something not visible happening.
>
> I just read Ken's post of July 16th, and yes Ken's problem sounds like the same issue I have-- as one approaches the correct settings, the K3 jumps to instantly to 5 bars, skipping 4 bars, or as you lower any input to the K3, the ALC actions simply stops at 5 bars...  Then te ALC levels start to pump, while power out stays the same...
>
> I have heard this described as Power Hunting before, but in my case, it seems totally disconnected from any power settings I run.  I have tried everything from 1 watt to 100 watts, and the behavior never changes.
>
> Alas, I fear I will just continue running with a bit of ALC, which I don't want to do...  I would like to set it up as per Elecraft recommendations, but that seems impossible.
>
>
> 73s and thanks,
> Dave
> NK7Z
> http://www.nk7z.net
>
> On 08/04/2017 05:11 AM, Glenn Anderson wrote:
>> You guys are over-thinking this "issue". Just set whatever combination
>> of level controls it takes to get four solid bars and a flashing fifth
>> on the ALC and get on with it.....that works for me.
>>
>> See Y'all on FT8!
>>
>> Glenn WB5TUF
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
>> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 11:52 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Odd ALC behavior
>>
>> Thanks to all for the sheer number and breadth of answers...  Rather
>> than answer each one, and create a huge number of posts, I will try
>> and answer all here...
>>
>> I have done all the steps outlined i the posts here before, and have
>> tried them again today.
>>
>> Output from the computer is sitting dead center, line in was sitting
>> at 27, and the power slider on WSJT-X is sitting at 4/5th full.
>>
>> I took a different sound card program, (MixW in RTTY), and I got the
>> same behavior at 5 bars, the meter shows 5 bars, or no bars going
>> between those conditions about once or twice a second randomly.
>>
>> If I increase ANY of the audio controls it drops out of that mode, and
>> acts just as Elecraft say to set things, just one bar higher, i.e.
>> sits at 5 bars, and the 6th flashes...
>>
>> No combination I can create of the input, or output controls will stop this.
>>
>> I also tried adjusting the power controls set a 1 watt, and at 50 watts.
>>     The power control makes zero difference in how it behaves.  In fact
>> if I am in TEST TRANSMIT mode the problem shows...
>>
>> Listening to the computer output via MON-- sounds perfect...
>>
>> I may next get the scope out again, and start looking at things again...
>>     I doubt it is the sound card changing levels because the issue goes
>> away if I turn up LINE IN on the K3...
>>
>> I am still at a loss as to what is causing this issue.  I am pretty
>> sure it is an artifact of something happening in the K3, but for the
>> life of me I can't figure it out.
>>
>> 73s and thanks,
>> Dave
>> NK7Z
>> http://www.nk7z.net
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
>>
>
______________________________________________________________
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Don Wilhelm
In reply to this post by Glenn Anderson
Glenn,

That method will give you a bad indication of the power output.
Elecraft transceivers use a closed loop power control system - as found
in some commercial transceivers, but as far as I know, not in other
amateur transceivers.

The result is that an Elecraft transceiver (K3, K3S, KX3, KX2 and yes
even the K2) will endeavor to provide the power level that was set with
the power knob.  That can cause some of the transmit gain stages to go
to their maximum output limit - which will increase distortion.

Set the audio level first as described by Elecraft, and after that, set
the power level desired with the power knob.
Leave the audio level alone after setting it.

Ignore the common internet advice, it does not work well with Elecraft gear.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/4/2017 12:18 PM, Glenn Anderson wrote:

> OK...so here's how I do it...
>
> 1. Press the "tune" button on the K3.
> 2. Set output power for a convenient reading on your wattmeter (50 watts). Exit "tune" mode.
> 3. Activate the "tune" function on WSJL or send a test tone from your favorite digital program.
> 4. Adjust whatever the series of audio controls that you have to make the output power match the value in step 2.
> 5. Exit test mode.
> 6. Operate
>
> I don't pay any attention to the ALC meter after this point. For the record, mine seems to flash between one and four bars.
>
> YMMV
>
> Glenn WB5TUF
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Cole [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Friday, August 04, 2017 7:54 AM
> To: Glenn Anderson <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Odd ALC behavior
>
> Hi Glenn,
>
> Respectfully, the issue, as already stated a few times, in several messages, is not that no one knows what to adjust, and we are all over thinking how to fix this, but that it is not possible to get the desired results, no matter what one adjusts.
>
> I have adjusted all possible combinations of level controls-- LINE IN on the K3, the sound card out on the computer, and the Power Out on WSJT-X, to get to the desired results, and have failed.
>
> Given that I am a pretty creative fellow, and spend decades in the Electronics industry, I suspect I am doing this correctly, so no, I am pretty sure this is not a case of over thinking, but of something not visible happening.
>
> I just read Ken's post of July 16th, and yes Ken's problem sounds like the same issue I have-- as one approaches the correct settings, the K3 jumps to instantly to 5 bars, skipping 4 bars, or as you lower any input to the K3, the ALC actions simply stops at 5 bars...  Then te ALC levels start to pump, while power out stays the same...
>
> I have heard this described as Power Hunting before, but in my case, it seems totally disconnected from any power settings I run.  I have tried everything from 1 watt to 100 watts, and the behavior never changes.
>
> Alas, I fear I will just continue running with a bit of ALC, which I don't want to do...  I would like to set it up as per Elecraft recommendations, but that seems impossible.
>
>
> 73s and thanks,
> Dave
> NK7Z
> http://www.nk7z.net
>
> On 08/04/2017 05:11 AM, Glenn Anderson wrote:
>> You guys are over-thinking this "issue". Just set whatever combination
>> of level controls it takes to get four solid bars and a flashing fifth
>> on the ALC and get on with it.....that works for me.
>>
>> See Y'all on FT8!
>>
>> Glenn WB5TUF
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
>> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 11:52 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Odd ALC behavior
>>
>> Thanks to all for the sheer number and breadth of answers...  Rather
>> than answer each one, and create a huge number of posts, I will try
>> and answer all here...
>>
>> I have done all the steps outlined i the posts here before, and have
>> tried them again today.
>>
>> Output from the computer is sitting dead center, line in was sitting
>> at 27, and the power slider on WSJT-X is sitting at 4/5th full.
>>
>> I took a different sound card program, (MixW in RTTY), and I got the
>> same behavior at 5 bars, the meter shows 5 bars, or no bars going
>> between those conditions about once or twice a second randomly.
>>
>> If I increase ANY of the audio controls it drops out of that mode, and
>> acts just as Elecraft say to set things, just one bar higher, i.e.
>> sits at 5 bars, and the 6th flashes...
>>
>> No combination I can create of the input, or output controls will stop this.
>>
>> I also tried adjusting the power controls set a 1 watt, and at 50 watts.
>>     The power control makes zero difference in how it behaves.  In fact
>> if I am in TEST TRANSMIT mode the problem shows...
>>
>> Listening to the computer output via MON-- sounds perfect...
>>
>> I may next get the scope out again, and start looking at things again...
>>     I doubt it is the sound card changing levels because the issue goes
>> away if I turn up LINE IN on the K3...
>>
>> I am still at a loss as to what is causing this issue.  I am pretty
>> sure it is an artifact of something happening in the K3, but for the
>> life of me I can't figure it out.
>>
>> 73s and thanks,
>> Dave
>> NK7Z
>> http://www.nk7z.net
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>>
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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

Brian Hunt
In reply to this post by NK7Z
I spent some quality time with my K3, FLDIGI and an oscilloscope today.  
I had the same problem as described.  Looking at my USB soundcard output
to the K3, the amplitude of the audio from FLDIGI in TUNE mode was rock
solid.  Looking at the MON output from the K3, the level oscillated in
time with the ALC "pumping" at about 2.4 Hz (timed with a stop watch).  
At the same time the K3 power output into a dummy load was rock solid at
a selected 10 watts.

Then I changed the carrier frequency in FLDIGI slightly off 1500 Hz and
the "pumping" went away!  At 1515 Hz I could easily set the ALC to the
desired 4 bars solid, 5th flickering.  Then I remembered (and verified)
that the default filter center in DATA A mode is 1500 Hz. I changed the
filter center frequency to 1450 Hz and moved the FLDIGI frequency around
but couldn't reproduce the "pumping".

I plan to repeat the same tests with WSJT-X 1.8 but wanted to get this
out to the group.

73,
Brian, K0DTJ

On 8/3/2017 13:25, Dave Cole wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have an issue in  regards to obtaining 4 bars, and getting the 5th
> bar of ALC to fluctuate while transmitting JT65.
>
> I have plenty of audio, and can drive the ALC to 6 or more bars if I
> turn things up.  However, as I get to 4 bars with the 5th flashing a
> bit, the ALC starts to fluctuate between nothing and 4 or 5 bars...
>
> That is to say, the ALC just goes to zero, no visible ALC, and then
> teh ALC returns to 4 or 5 bars.  This happens across a one or two
> second time span.
>
> The ALC is at zero more than it is above zero most of the time. If I
> run it to five bars, with the fifth fluctuating, all is well, there
> seems to be some sort of threshold at the 5th bar of ALC...
>
> I have tried a number of things to try and triage this...  For instance:
>
> 1.  Running in "Transmit Test" mode to eliminate RF feedback.
> 2.  Upping the audio level feeding the K3.
> 3.  Reducing the audio level feeding the K3.
> 4.  Upping the line in on the K3 setup.
> 5.  Reducing the Line in on the K3 setup.
> 6.  Adjustment of the WSJT-X output level control, under conditions 2
> through 5 above.
>
> In all cases the above described behavior of the ALC dropping to zero
> does not change in any way if I am at 5 or less bars.  That is to say,
> if I take the ALC level to 4 bars, it starts dropping to zero more
> than not...
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to what this might be?
>
> A a bit of history-- the computer and sound card were used on an Icom
> 756 ProIII, and there was never an issue like this...  The ALC was
> adjustable from zero to too much on the Icom, with no dropouts...
>

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Re: K3: Odd ALC behavior

NK7Z
Please post resultd from WSJT-X, as that is what I am using.  I have
noted that tune, vs. actual outputs act differently...  THANK YOU!

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 08/04/2017 10:58 AM, Brian Hunt wrote:

> I spent some quality time with my K3, FLDIGI and an oscilloscope today.
> I had the same problem as described.  Looking at my USB soundcard output
> to the K3, the amplitude of the audio from FLDIGI in TUNE mode was rock
> solid.  Looking at the MON output from the K3, the level oscillated in
> time with the ALC "pumping" at about 2.4 Hz (timed with a stop watch).
> At the same time the K3 power output into a dummy load was rock solid at
> a selected 10 watts.
>
> Then I changed the carrier frequency in FLDIGI slightly off 1500 Hz and
> the "pumping" went away!  At 1515 Hz I could easily set the ALC to the
> desired 4 bars solid, 5th flickering.  Then I remembered (and verified)
> that the default filter center in DATA A mode is 1500 Hz. I changed the
> filter center frequency to 1450 Hz and moved the FLDIGI frequency around
> but couldn't reproduce the "pumping".
>
> I plan to repeat the same tests with WSJT-X 1.8 but wanted to get this
> out to the group.
>
> 73,
> Brian, K0DTJ
>
> On 8/3/2017 13:25, Dave Cole wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have an issue in  regards to obtaining 4 bars, and getting the 5th
>> bar of ALC to fluctuate while transmitting JT65.
>>
>> I have plenty of audio, and can drive the ALC to 6 or more bars if I
>> turn things up.  However, as I get to 4 bars with the 5th flashing a
>> bit, the ALC starts to fluctuate between nothing and 4 or 5 bars...
>>
>> That is to say, the ALC just goes to zero, no visible ALC, and then
>> teh ALC returns to 4 or 5 bars.  This happens across a one or two
>> second time span.
>>
>> The ALC is at zero more than it is above zero most of the time. If I
>> run it to five bars, with the fifth fluctuating, all is well, there
>> seems to be some sort of threshold at the 5th bar of ALC...
>>
>> I have tried a number of things to try and triage this...  For instance:
>>
>> 1.  Running in "Transmit Test" mode to eliminate RF feedback.
>> 2.  Upping the audio level feeding the K3.
>> 3.  Reducing the audio level feeding the K3.
>> 4.  Upping the line in on the K3 setup.
>> 5.  Reducing the Line in on the K3 setup.
>> 6.  Adjustment of the WSJT-X output level control, under conditions 2
>> through 5 above.
>>
>> In all cases the above described behavior of the ALC dropping to zero
>> does not change in any way if I am at 5 or less bars.  That is to say,
>> if I take the ALC level to 4 bars, it starts dropping to zero more
>> than not...
>>
>> Does anyone have any suggestions as to what this might be?
>>
>> A a bit of history-- the computer and sound card were used on an Icom
>> 756 ProIII, and there was never an issue like this...  The ALC was
>> adjustable from zero to too much on the Icom, with no dropouts...
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
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