K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

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K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

Darwin, Keith
Hey troops,
 
I had an idea last night while in CW QSO with my K3.  I've noticed that I always turn the AF gain down when I send CW.  I have the side tone volume set to just the right level for the Spot function to work, but when I send CW I want to greatly reduce the distraction from the receiver.  I still want to hear it, but not be distracted by it.
 
That got me thinking about ducking.  Boy, would it be cool if the K3 would duck the receiver under the CW side tone.  I'd want it to be engaged only when sending (not for spot) and I'd like the AF gain reduction to be adjustable through a menu setting.
 
I guess another way to implement this might be to have the side tone affect the AGC so when I send, my RX responds as if it were a real signal and the AGC kicks in to quiet the receiver.  In this case, I'd want to set the amount of gain reduction and whether to use Fast or Slow recovery.
 
- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -

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Future Feature Request

Roy Davis
If it is possible and practical from a programming aspect, the following would be a nice feature to have in the K3.
 
To have each menu function screen numbered and a sheet for reference with the menu settings and there numbers listed.  It would make finding what you are looking for quicker and easier when in the config. mode.
 
Thank you,
Roy Davis - WK4Y
#1366
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:47 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

Hey troops,
 
I had an idea last night while in CW QSO with my K3.  I've noticed that I always turn the AF gain down when I send CW.  I have the side tone volume set to just the right level for the Spot function to work, but when I send CW I want to greatly reduce the distraction from the receiver.  I still want to hear it, but not be distracted by it.
 
That got me thinking about ducking.  Boy, would it be cool if the K3 would duck the receiver under the CW side tone.  I'd want it to be engaged only when sending (not for spot) and I'd like the AF gain reduction to be adjustable through a menu setting.
 
I guess another way to implement this might be to have the side tone affect the AGC so when I send, my RX responds as if it were a real signal and the AGC kicks in to quiet the receiver.  In this case, I'd want to set the amount of gain reduction and whether to use Fast or Slow recovery.
 
- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -


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Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

K7TV
In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith
Interesting idea Keith!
 
I must admit that I too have often been turning down gain controls while transmitting, not only on the K3, but even more on other rigs. At other times I have been using semi-QSK with a *LONG* timeout, even though the rig including amp can handle full QSK. The reason is that my aging brain finds it harder every year to focus on a task. Sending CW (my favorite mode) requires my 100% attention, and *any* distraction can make me mess up: other stations received within the passband, band noise, fan noise, relay clicks, and even hard edges on the side tone. I am so happy that the K3 doesn't have the relay clicks of my old 1000D, but under some circumstances its QSK/side tone have given me "hard edges" although that is normally not the case. The K3's selectivity is a great blessing, and although I can copy a single signal among several in a wide passband, I tend to reduce bandwidth during a QSO so that I can transmit without hearing other stations. I recently got a nice headset that blocks external sounds for the purpose of blocking out the vacuum relay clicks and fan noise from my amplifier.
 
Your automatic ducking of the AF gain during transmission would be a welcome option that I would probably end up using sometimes if it were implemented. I guess the ducking as used during full QSK could use a delay equal to the semi-QSK delay setting. For use with semi-QSK perhaps one would want to use a shorter time constant for switching to receive and a separate longer time before receive gets full gain.
 
Another idea: Since much of the distracting noise between characters can be eliminated by using a really narrow bandwidth, how about a new twist on Dual Passband: transmit full QSK with the very narrow receive bandwidth and open up the bandwidth to 500 Hz or so after a delay set by the semi-QSK delay?
 
73,
Erik K7TV
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 5:47 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

Hey troops,
 
I had an idea last night while in CW QSO with my K3.  I've noticed that I always turn the AF gain down when I send CW.  I have the side tone volume set to just the right level for the Spot function to work, but when I send CW I want to greatly reduce the distraction from the receiver.  I still want to hear it, but not be distracted by it.
 
That got me thinking about ducking.  Boy, would it be cool if the K3 would duck the receiver under the CW side tone.  I'd want it to be engaged only when sending (not for spot) and I'd like the AF gain reduction to be adjustable through a menu setting.
 
I guess another way to implement this might be to have the side tone affect the AGC so when I send, my RX responds as if it were a real signal and the AGC kicks in to quiet the receiver.  In this case, I'd want to set the amount of gain reduction and whether to use Fast or Slow recovery.
 
- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -


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Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

Ken Kopp-3
In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith
What is "ducking", as you call it here?  

73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
     [hidden email]

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Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

Darwin, Keith
Ducking is a commercial radio / sound industry technique of attenuating
the music when the DJ talks.  In the old days, the DJ at the radio
station would just pan down the music volume whenever he spoke into the
mic.  These days, recording studios will use a compressor with a
separate trigger (side chain) input.  The compressor is set to attenuate
20 dB or so whenever there is something on the trigger input.  You run
the music through the compressor and feed the voice to the trigger.
Then, when you talk, the compressor is activated, forcing the music to
"duck" under the vocals.  Close your mouth and a moment later the music
rushes back to full volume.

- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken Kopp
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:56 AM

What is "ducking", as you call it here?  

73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
     [hidden email]

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Re: Future Feature Request

Terry Schieler
In reply to this post by Roy Davis
Roy, WK4Y wrote:

If it is possible and practical from a programming aspect, the following
would be a nice feature to have in the K3.
 
To have each menu function screen numbered and a sheet for reference with
the menu settings and there numbers listed.  It would make finding what you
are looking for quicker and easier when in the config. mode.
 
......

I agree.  An alternative would be if the printed menu description also
included (in bold) the actual WORDS that the menu abbreviation stood for,
finding the menu you wanted would then be simpler.  As it is now, the
abbreviated words of the menu name are *sometimes* used in the description
and sometimes they are not, leaving one to guess what the abbreviation
“stands for”.  You learn them eventually, but it could be simpler,
particularly as the number of menu items grow.

Terry, W0FM
K3/100 #474


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Re: Future Feature Request

Darwin, Keith
Individually numbering each menu item could prove to be awkward.  If you assign numbers 1 through 'n' now, what happens when you insert something later?  It gets number n+1 but it may appear out of numeric order as you surf through the menu system.  Same thing happens if you move an item around.  If an item is deleted or replaced by 2 items, then I suppose you'd have to retire the original number.  So instead of a nice clean listing of numbers 1 through N, you'd have a sparse list of items 1 through N that probably are not in numerical order when you look for them in the menu system.

- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -

-----Original Message-----
To have each menu function screen numbered and a sheet for reference with the menu settings and there numbers listed.  It would make finding what you are looking for quicker and easier when in the config. mode.
 
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Re: Future Feature Request

Roy Davis
Thanks for the comments to all replied.  I understand Keith's viewpoint.
But, Yaesu has this and has made changes where the items did not stay the
same.  But I don't see updating the sheet a problem.  If they are able to do
it to the firmware, I would think that each update would overwrite the old
information for that feature.

I'm not a programmer, just my thoughts.

Roy - WK4Y
#1366


----- Original Message -----
From: "Darwin, Keith" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Future Feature Request


Individually numbering each menu item could prove to be awkward.  If you
assign numbers 1 through 'n' now, what happens when you insert something
later?  It gets number n+1 but it may appear out of numeric order as you
surf through the menu system.  Same thing happens if you move an item
around.  If an item is deleted or replaced by 2 items, then I suppose you'd
have to retire the original number.  So instead of a nice clean listing of
numbers 1 through N, you'd have a sparse list of items 1 through N that
probably are not in numerical order when you look for them in the menu
system.

- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -

-----Original Message-----
To have each menu function screen numbered and a sheet for reference with
the menu settings and there numbers listed. It would make finding what you
are looking for quicker and easier when in the config. mode.

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Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

Peter Wollan-2
In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith
I still don't understand this notion.  For CW, don't you obtain this
effect simply by turning down the sidetone volume?  On transmit,
receive is already muted.

     Peter

On 1/20/09, Darwin, Keith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ducking is a commercial radio / sound industry technique of attenuating
> the music when the DJ talks.  In the old days, the DJ at the radio
> station would just pan down the music volume whenever he spoke into the
> mic.  These days, recording studios will use a compressor with a
> separate trigger (side chain) input.  The compressor is set to attenuate
> 20 dB or so whenever there is something on the trigger input.  You run
> the music through the compressor and feed the voice to the trigger.
> Then, when you talk, the compressor is activated, forcing the music to
> "duck" under the vocals.  Close your mouth and a moment later the music
> rushes back to full volume.
>
> - Keith N1AS -
> - K3 711 -
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken Kopp
> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:56 AM
>
> What is "ducking", as you call it here?
>
> 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
>     [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Future Feature Request

Merv Schweigert
In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith
I thought it was pretty nice for the menu to be in alphabetical order so
it was
easy to run through to find what you are looking for,  and lends itself
very
well for new additions.
Also making up a cheat sheet for most used functions,  just leave a
couple spaces
between letters for new additions.
Merv KH7C  K3 2306

> Individually numbering each menu item could prove to be awkward.  
> - Keith N1AS -
> - K3 711 -
>
> -----Original Message-----
> To have each menu function screen numbered and a sheet for reference with the menu settings and there numbers listed.  It would make finding what you are looking for quicker and easier when in the config. mode.
>  
>  

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Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

Darwin, Keith
In reply to this post by Peter Wollan-2
No, the manual way to achieve this effect is to turn down the AF gain
while you're transmitting.  Sidetone is still there nice & loud but the
RX audio that you hear between elements is reduced.  When you're done
sending, you reach for the AF gain and turn it back up to the normal
listening level.

Now, imagine it was automatic.  As soon as you send, the K3 turns AF
gain down and leaves it down until a second or so after you finish
sending, then it turns it back up to where it was.  This way, while
you're sending, the AF signal that you hear between dots & dashes is
quieter than when you're just listening.

Is that any clearer?  If not, ask more questions :-)

- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -
 

-----Original Message-----
I still don't understand this notion.  For CW, don't you obtain this
effect simply by turning down the sidetone volume?  On transmit, receive
is already muted.

     Peter
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Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

wayne burdick
Administrator
Keith,

This is an interesting idea, and I've added it to the firmware
wish-list. Thanks. In the interim you might try a non-zero value of CW
semi-QSK delay, assuming you don't need full break-in.

Wayne
N6KR

On Jan 20, 2009, at 9:52 AM, Darwin, Keith wrote:

> No, the manual way to achieve this effect is to turn down the AF gain
> while you're transmitting.  Sidetone is still there nice & loud but the
> RX audio that you hear between elements is reduced.  When you're done
> sending, you reach for the AF gain and turn it back up to the normal
> listening level.
>
> Now, imagine it was automatic.  As soon as you send, the K3 turns AF
> gain down and leaves it down until a second or so after you finish
> sending, then it turns it back up to where it was.  This way, while
> you're sending, the AF signal that you hear between dots & dashes is
> quieter than when you're just listening.


---

http://www.elecraft.com

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Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

Vic K2VCO
wayne burdick wrote:
> Keith,
>
> This is an interesting idea, and I've added it to the firmware
> wish-list. Thanks. In the interim you might try a non-zero value of CW
> semi-QSK delay, assuming you don't need full break-in.

I would use this if the amount of compression was adjustable. But
cleaning up some of the sidetone artifacts heard when the band is noisy
or crowded would go a long way toward obviating the need for this!
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

N2TK
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
Hopefully if implemented it is an option. If not using QSK it is fine. But
if using QSK I want to hear between elements, even if the other station is
weak while I am sending so that I don't need to keep sending if the other
station starts transmitting.

73,
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of wayne burdick
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 12:57 PM
To: Darwin, Keith
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

Keith,

This is an interesting idea, and I've added it to the firmware
wish-list. Thanks. In the interim you might try a non-zero value of CW
semi-QSK delay, assuming you don't need full break-in.

Wayne
N6KR

On Jan 20, 2009, at 9:52 AM, Darwin, Keith wrote:

> No, the manual way to achieve this effect is to turn down the AF gain
> while you're transmitting.  Sidetone is still there nice & loud but the
> RX audio that you hear between elements is reduced.  When you're done
> sending, you reach for the AF gain and turn it back up to the normal
> listening level.
>
> Now, imagine it was automatic.  As soon as you send, the K3 turns AF
> gain down and leaves it down until a second or so after you finish
> sending, then it turns it back up to where it was.  This way, while
> you're sending, the AF signal that you hear between dots & dashes is
> quieter than when you're just listening.


---

http://www.elecraft.com

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Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

wayne burdick
Administrator

On Jan 20, 2009, at 10:54 AM, N2TK wrote:

> Hopefully if implemented it is an option.

Definitely.

Wayne

> If not using QSK it is fine. But
> if using QSK I want to hear between elements, even if the other
> station is
> weak while I am sending...


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Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

Darwin, Keith
In reply to this post by N2TK
I would definitely view it as an option, and I'd want some
configurability to it.

But, with this feature, you'd still be able to run full QSK and hear
between dots.  It may be that really weak stations become harder to hear
depending on how much attenuation you choose to apply to the RX signal.

I'm thinking I may give it a try with my external compressor.  I *think*
I can get it all hooked up.  We'll see.

- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -

-----Original Message-----
From: N2TK [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 1:55 PM
To: 'wayne burdick'; Darwin, Keith
Cc: 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

Hopefully if implemented it is an option. If not using QSK it is fine.
But if using QSK I want to hear between elements, even if the other
station is weak while I am sending so that I don't need to keep sending
if the other station starts transmitting.

73,
N2TK, Tony

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Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

N2TK
In reply to this post by K7TV
Hi Eric,
Not sure I understand what benefit there would be to open up the bandwidth when in QSK mode. Since I most likely will be in QSK mode when calling someone, I would think one would want to maintain the same receive bandwidth as selected before initiating the call.  
If I need to change bandwidth quickly I use "I/II".
 
What am I missing?
 
73,
N2TK, Tony


From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Erik N Basilier
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:40 AM
To: Darwin, Keith; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

 
Another idea: Since much of the distracting noise between characters can be eliminated by using a really narrow bandwidth, how about a new twist on Dual Passband: transmit full QSK with the very narrow receive bandwidth and open up the bandwidth to 500 Hz or so after a delay set by the semi-QSK delay?
 
73,
Erik K7TV

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Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

Vic K2VCO
In reply to this post by N2TK
N2TK wrote:
> Hopefully if implemented it is an option. If not using QSK it is fine. But
> if using QSK I want to hear between elements, even if the other station is
> weak while I am sending so that I don't need to keep sending if the other
> station starts transmitting.

Actually, I think a small amount of gain reduction might go a long way
toward reducing operator fatigue in a contest, for example, without
seriously impacting the ability to hear a break.

What's important is that the amount of gain reduction be adjustable over
a wide range to accommodate the above use as well as for the guy who
wants it to be a kind of semi-QSK.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

Joe Planisky
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
I like this ducking idea and would very likely use it.  It's sort of a  
'soft' QSK.

I certainly understand the benefits of full QSK operation, but it's  
something that I simply cannot get my brain to cooperate with.  To me,  
operating full QSK with other signals present is like trying to count  
ball bearings with two or three other people shouting random numbers  
at me.  Even without other signals, the rhythmic pulsing of the band  
noise messes me up.   I usually use semi QSK with a 1/2 second or so  
delay, but perhaps with an option for something between dead silence  
and operating volume level, I could train my brain to work full QSK.

73
--
Joe KB8AP


On Jan 20, 2009, at 9:56 AM, wayne burdick wrote:

> Keith,
>
> This is an interesting idea, and I've added it to the firmware
> wish-list. Thanks. In the interim you might try a non-zero value of CW
> semi-QSK delay, assuming you don't need full break-in.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> On Jan 20, 2009, at 9:52 AM, Darwin, Keith wrote:
>
>> No, the manual way to achieve this effect is to turn down the AF gain
>> while you're transmitting.  Sidetone is still there nice & loud but  
>> the
>> RX audio that you hear between elements is reduced.  When you're done
>> sending, you reach for the AF gain and turn it back up to the normal
>> listening level.
>>
>> Now, imagine it was automatic.  As soon as you send, the K3 turns AF
>> gain down and leaves it down until a second or so after you finish
>> sending, then it turns it back up to where it was.  This way, while
>> you're sending, the AF signal that you hear between dots & dashes is
>> quieter than when you're just listening.

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Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!

Bill Johnson-9
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
I like the idea as well... if one could adjust the audio attenuation to suit
one's needs it would help those of us who aren't as proficient as we'd wish
and distracted as well.


73,

Bill
K9YEQ
K2 #35; KX1 #35; K3 #1744; mini mods
-----Original Message-----

Keith,

This is an interesting idea, and I've added it to the firmware
wish-list. Thanks. In the interim you might try a non-zero value of CW
semi-QSK delay, assuming you don't need full break-in.

Wayne
N6KR

On Jan 20, 2009, at 9:52 AM, Darwin, Keith wrote:

> No, the manual way to achieve this effect is to turn down the AF gain
> while you're transmitting.  Sidetone is still there nice & loud but the
> RX audio that you hear between elements is reduced.  When you're done
> sending, you reach for the AF gain and turn it back up to the normal
> listening level.
>
> Now, imagine it was automatic.  As soon as you send, the K3 turns AF
> gain down and leaves it down until a second or so after you finish
> sending, then it turns it back up to where it was.  This way, while
> you're sending, the AF signal that you hear between dots & dashes is
> quieter than when you're just listening.



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