K3IOB

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Re: KIO3B pricing

w5sum

Been reading all this with interest.  I got my K3, fully loaded, about 2
weeks before the K3S announcement. Luckily I got the new Synth board in
mine, but
I still sort of felt like a new car buyer, buying a new 2015 model a week
before the 2016s hit the showroom floor.

Ronnie W5SUM
-----Original Message-----
From: Oliver Dröse
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 4:25 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KIO3B pricing

Eric,

interestingly I didn't get your mail yet, neither the direct one nor
that via the reflector although Chas already responded to it. Who knows
... so will pick his one to answer. Thanks for the explaination. The
insight is much appreciated although not what I wanted to hear. ;-) Will
make up my mind again during Christmas ... maybe Santa will be generous.
;-) Otherwise as said before I can live with the "old" one plus external
USB card ... as I do with the old synth boards ...

73, Olli

Contest, DX & radio projects: http://www.dh8bqa.de


Am 19.12.2015 um 22:58 schrieb Charlie T, K3ICH:

> You make a very good case for buying a new K3s.
> I chose that route, and after all the finagling and swapping, it cost me
> under $500 to go from a 2007 K3 to a brandie new 2015 K3s.
> Heckuva deal if you axe me.
>
> I must add that the recovered audio is absolutely THE best I've heard from
> any transceiver.
> Even with a pair of mediocre speakers, it sounds great.
>
> Chas
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Eric
> Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
> Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 3:50 PM
> To: Oliver Dröse <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KIO3B pricing (was: Re: K3IOB)
>
> Hi Olli,
>
> Yes, 389.95 is the correct price.
>
> This is not a single board. It is a three board set that costs much more
> than our old KIO3B to manufacture.  The board set also now contains a new
> USB Codec, USB Comm port, Internal USB hub and additional logic to handle
> routing of data between the USB and RS-232 paths (all fitting into the
> same space as the old boards). The upgrade kit also includes two external
> cables (one custom), new hw etc.  These boards are also manufactured at a
> much lower volume than those in the PC market, with the subsequent
> increased cost on our end. A $200 price would be selling at a significant
> loss.
>
> Our goal is always to price our products as reasonably as possible after
> taking into account our production and support costs while making enough
> profit to continue to exist and serve the amateur radio market. We walk
> that line carefully every day. And its always a challenge! :-)
>
> 73,
>
> Eric
> elecraft.com
>
>
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Re: K3IOB

Grant Youngman
In reply to this post by Gary Gregory-2
I guess the good news is that because so many of you folks think you’ll pass, I’ll get mine sooner ;-)

I consider the fact that it provides a single-cable multi-function interface between computer and radio, eliminating other miscellaneous and potentially problematic goop in between, to be a good thing.  And stuff costs what it costs. So even though I’m mostly a luddite who doesn’t generally treat a radio as simply one more in a long chain of computer peripherals, I’ll most likely have an order placed as soon as it shows up :-)

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342





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Re: KIO3B pricing (was: Re: K3IOB)

Ed W0YK
In reply to this post by Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
The KIO3BUPKT price was a surprise because the KIO3 assembly is bundled into
the K3 and K3S, so its standalone price has not been generally publicized.
Further, the KSYN3AUPG and KXV3B are $220 and $200 respectively, so one
might have expected the KIO3BUPKT to be similar.

But, in fact, the KIO3/A/B assembly is more expensive than many of us
realized.  I am confident that Elecraft priced the KIO3BUPKT in the same
fair manner as their other products.  Each of us can decide if the price is
worth the value we expect to receive from it.  And, many have already chosen
to buy the K3S rather than upgrade a K3.  It's great that we have all these
choices!

Ed W0YK

__________________________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Eric
Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Sent: 19 December, 2015 12:50
To: Oliver Dröse
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KIO3B pricing (was: Re: K3IOB)

Hi Olli,

Yes, 389.95 is the correct price.

This is not a single board. It is a three board set that costs much more
than our old KIO3B to manufacture.  The board set also now contains a new
USB Codec, USB Comm port, Internal USB hub and additional logic to handle
routing of data between the USB and RS-232 paths (all fitting into the same
space as the old boards). The upgrade kit also includes two external cables
(one custom), new hw etc.  These boards are also manufactured at a much
lower volume than those in the PC market, with the subsequent increased cost
on our end. A $200 price would be selling at a significant loss.

Our goal is always to price our products as reasonably as possible after
taking into account our production and support costs while making enough
profit to continue to exist and serve the amateur radio market. We walk that
line carefully every day. And its always a challenge! :-)

73,

Eric
elecraft.com
_..._

> On Dec 19, 2015, at 11:07 AM, Oliver Dröse <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Would have expected something in the 200 US$ price range but 400 bucks for
an "USB sound card" (as this is the only functional difference to the KIO3A)
is too heavy for my liking, too ... will probably keep going with my
microHAM USB III then ...
>
> 73, Olli - DH8BQA


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Re: KIO3B pricing

Tom Azlin W7SUA-2
In reply to this post by Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Thanks Eric.

That price works for me. Will let my simplify my set up and use a new
computer without a older RS-232 serial port.

73, tom w7sua

On 12/19/2015 1:50 PM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:
> Hi Olli,
>
> Yes, 389.95 is the correct price.
>
[snip]
>
> 73,
>
> Eric elecraft.com _..._
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KIO3 board

Johnny Siu
In reply to this post by Grant Youngman
Hello Gentleman,
If you are going to take the new KIO3B, and existing KIO3 board becomes redundant.  I would like to take KIO3 Audio I/O module E850236.  It is just a small piece of PCB and can be shipped easily in a padded envelope by airmail.
Please reply off-the-list.
73
Johnny VR2XMC
 

      寄件人︰ GRANT YOUNGMAN <[hidden email]>
 收件人︰ Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
 傳送日期︰ 2015年12月21日 (週一) 1:11 AM
 主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] K3IOB
   
I guess the good news is that because so many of you folks think you’ll pass, I’ll get mine sooner ;-)

I consider the fact that it provides a single-cable multi-function interface between computer and radio, eliminating other miscellaneous and potentially problematic goop in between, to be a good thing.  And stuff costs what it costs. So even though I’m mostly a luddite who doesn’t generally treat a radio as simply one more in a long chain of computer peripherals, I’ll most likely have an order placed as soon as it shows up :-)

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342





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Re: KIO3B pricing (was: Re: K3IOB)

Kenneth Christiansen-2
In reply to this post by Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Hi to the group

I am pleased I decided to get my K3s SN 10329 instead of waiting for the parts to upgrade my early K3 457. I don't think my cost was all that much different as I found a buyer for my K3 with all the upgrades I had put in over the years including the sync board. I have now used the K3s  for 2 months and while I don't know that I have worked anyone I could not have worked with the K3 I am impressed with how well it works under poor conditions. I appreciate getting rid of the external pre amp, the external sound card and the USB to RS232 interface. I find it easy to use FLDIGI now. When I had all those wires behind my K3 I needed a day of warning before I could do a digital sked.

The sync board made my K3 a top notch performer to sell and it is no different than when I put $3000 in my 12 year old car than had another major problem and decided to trade it in. I have never been sorry and now 5 years later still enjoy the new features of my new car. I hope next time around I get smart quicker and do not put $3000 in this 5 year old car before I trade it off but I do hope to keep driving it a few more years.

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 19, 2015, at 2:50 PM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Olli,
>
> Yes, 389.95 is the correct price.
>
> This is not a single board. It is a three board set that costs
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Re: KIO3B Audio Spec

Dan AE9K
In reply to this post by Lyle Johnson
For those of us that have external interfaces like microHam DigiKeyers the possibility of eliminating a box and the hydra cable of connections to the K3 is certainly motivation enough for the KIO3B upgrade.  

I am curious though how the audio performance of the KIO3B compares with other interfaces that defined the high end (e.g. Creative EMU series, microHam, etc.).  Without published specs for dynamic range, SNR, etc. we don't have a means of assessing this.  While Lyle responded with the bit-depth and typical sampling frequencies we could use a bit more info.

If the specs are decent the price tag seems acceptable to me.

Dan
AE9K
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Re: KIO3B Audio Spec

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

 >  Without published specs for dynamic range, SNR, etc. we
 > don't have a means of assessing this.

The CODEC used in the KIO3B is from the same family as used by most of
the amateur USB sound card products (including microHAM USB Interface
III).  Unless the designer cuts corners (like the designer of the
Signalink USB) by eliminating critical power supply bypassing and
regulators, performance of all devices using the same family of USB
Audio CODECS will be very similar based on the limits of the 16 bit
ADC, the noise figure of any audio preamplifiers used by the designer
and the power supply noise rejection (does the design properly keep
digital noise out of the power supply for the analog circuits?).

I have not tested the KIO3B but I certainly would not expect that Wayne
cut any corners in the design.  Thus performance of the KIO3B and
microHAM USB Interface III (noise floor, dynamic range, etc.) should
be nearly identical - within unit to unit manufacturing tolerances.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 12/30/2015 4:05 PM, Dan AE9K wrote:

> For those of us that have external interfaces like microHam DigiKeyers the
> possibility of eliminating a box and the hydra cable of connections to the
> K3 is certainly motivation enough for the KIO3B upgrade.
>
> I am curious though how the audio performance of the KIO3B compares with
> other interfaces that defined the high end (e.g. Creative EMU series,
> microHam, etc.).  Without published specs for dynamic range, SNR, etc. we
> don't have a means of assessing this.  While Lyle responded with the
> bit-depth and typical sampling frequencies we could use a bit more info.
>
> If the specs are decent the price tag seems acceptable to me.
>
> Dan
> AE9K
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3IOB-tp7611605p7612028.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: KIO3B Audio Spec

ab2tc
Hi,

Here is the spectrum out of the USB codec with a -73dBm carrier from the XG3:

http://ab2tc.com/new_k3s_usb.png

The K3S setting is USB with a passband of 300 to 2400Hz. I left the LINE OUT level set to the factory setting (10), and set the recording level with the Windows mixer (Win7).

AB2TC - Knut

Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote
>  Without published specs for dynamic range, SNR, etc. we
 > don't have a means of assessing this.

The CODEC used in the KIO3B is from the same family as used by most of
the amateur USB sound card products (including microHAM USB Interface
III).  Unless the designer cuts corners (like the designer of the
Signalink USB) by eliminating critical power supply bypassing and
regulators, performance of all devices using the same family of USB
Audio CODECS will be very similar based on the limits of the 16 bit
ADC, the noise figure of any audio preamplifiers used by the designer
and the power supply noise rejection (does the design properly keep
digital noise out of the power supply for the analog circuits?).

I have not tested the KIO3B but I certainly would not expect that Wayne
cut any corners in the design.  Thus performance of the KIO3B and
microHAM USB Interface III (noise floor, dynamic range, etc.) should
be nearly identical - within unit to unit manufacturing tolerances.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV

<snip>
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Re: KIO3B Audio Spec

ab2tc
Hi again,  

BTW, some people have been complaining about 60Hz hum in the audio. I zoomed in one the low end:

http://ab2tc.com/k3s_usb_lows.png

There is absolutely no sign of 60, 120 or 180Hz in this spectrum. I have also listened to the signal with good headphones and hear no trace of hum.

AB2TC - Knut

ab2tc wrote
Hi,

Here is the spectrum out of the USB codec with a -73dBm carrier from the XG3:

http://ab2tc.com/new_k3s_usb.png

The K3S setting is USB with a passband of 300 to 2400Hz. I left the LINE OUT level set to the factory setting (10), and set the recording level with the Windows mixer (Win7).

AB2TC - Knut

<snip>
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Re: KIO3B Audio Spec

N1EU
You'll get hum if your computer and K3 chassis aren't at the same
ground potential.  For many, it may be preferable to use the rear
panel Line Out, which is transformer isolated.

73, Barry N1EU

On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 2:15 PM, ab2tc <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi again,
>
> BTW, some people have been complaining about 60Hz hum in the audio. I zoomed
> in one the low end:
>
> http://ab2tc.com/k3s_usb_lows.png
>
> There is absolutely no sign of 60, 120 or 180Hz in this spectrum. I have
> also listened to the signal with good headphones and hear no trace of hum.
>
> AB2TC - Knut
>
>
> ab2tc wrote
>> Hi,
>>
>> Here is the spectrum out of the USB codec with a -73dBm carrier from the
>> XG3:
>>
>> http://ab2tc.com/new_k3s_usb.png
>>
>> The K3S setting is USB with a passband of 300 to 2400Hz. I left the LINE
>> OUT level set to the factory setting (10), and set the recording level
>> with the Windows mixer (Win7).
>>
>> AB2TC - Knut
>> <snip>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3IOB-tp7611605p7612094.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Re: KIO3B Audio Spec

Bob McGraw - K4TAX
In reply to this post by ab2tc
In Knut's plot with the 1 kHz peak, the 2nd harmonic and 3rd harmonic
are clearly visible.  In the one with the low end, I agree, no 60 Hz,
120 Hz or 180 Hz is seen.   I measured my K3S with the radio connected
to the computer via the USB port.  No 60 Hz, 120 Hz or 180 Hz signal
observed.

I suspect if anyone is experiencing "hum" they best look for a ground
loop which likely exists as there is a difference in potential between
different pieces of equipment.

73
Bob, K4TAX

On 12/31/2015 1:15 PM, ab2tc wrote:

> Hi again,
>
> BTW, some people have been complaining about 60Hz hum in the audio. I zoomed
> in one the low end:
>
> http://ab2tc.com/k3s_usb_lows.png
>
> There is absolutely no sign of 60, 120 or 180Hz in this spectrum. I have
> also listened to the signal with good headphones and hear no trace of hum.
>
> AB2TC - Knut
>
>
> ab2tc wrote
>> >Hi,
>> >
>> >Here is the spectrum out of the USB codec with a -73dBm carrier from the
>> >XG3:
>> >
>> >http://ab2tc.com/new_k3s_usb.png
>> >
>> >The K3S setting is USB with a passband of 300 to 2400Hz. I left the LINE
>> >OUT level set to the factory setting (10), and set the recording level
>> >with the Windows mixer (Win7).
>> >
>> >AB2TC - Knut
>> ><snip>


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Re: KIO3B Audio Spec

ab2tc
Hi Bob,

Yes, the harmonics are visible but down a comfortable more than 70dB below the fundamental. There is still a little bit of junk around 3900Hz (it was there on the analog line out, too).

AB2TC - Knut

PS. Is a schematic forthcoming any time soon? This is the first radio I have owned ever, with no schematics.


Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote
In Knut's plot with the 1 kHz peak, the 2nd harmonic and 3rd harmonic
are clearly visible.  In the one with the low end, I agree, no 60 Hz,
120 Hz or 180 Hz is seen.   I measured my K3S with the radio connected
to the computer via the USB port.  No 60 Hz, 120 Hz or 180 Hz signal
observed.

I suspect if anyone is experiencing "hum" they best look for a ground
loop which likely exists as there is a difference in potential between
different pieces of equipment.

73
Bob, K4TAX

On 12/31/2015 1:15 PM, ab2tc wrote:
<snip>
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Re: KIO3B Audio Spec

Kevin Stover
In reply to this post by N1EU
Or simply make sure the radio and computer cases are connected with an
adequate bond.
Why would anybody choose not to?

On 12/31/2015 1:29 PM, Barry N1EU wrote:
> You'll get hum if your computer and K3 chassis aren't at the same
> ground potential.  For many, it may be preferable to use the rear
> panel Line Out, which is transformer isolated.
>
> 73, Barry N1EU
>
>


--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


---
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Re: KIO3B Audio Spec

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by N1EU
On Thu,12/31/2015 11:29 AM, Barry N1EU wrote:
> You'll get hum if your computer and K3 chassis aren't at the same ground potential.

Delete the word "ground." That has NOTHING to do with it.

> For many, it may be preferable to use the rear panel Line Out, which is transformer isolated.

Hmmmm! The ancient and accepted way to bring all of the chassis at the
same potential is to BOND THEM TOGETHER!  This is EE101, simple Ohm's
Law. You do NOT need transformer isolation if the equipment is properly
bonded! http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf  Nothing but plain,
ordinary copper wire.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: KIO3B Audio Spec

Bob McGraw - K4TAX
Yes, this is correct.

I have all of my station equipment bonded to the common point on the
station power supply.   And I do not use any "ground" to the outside
world from my 2nd floor station.  Works just great, all bands 160M - 23
cm, any power level to legal limit, any mode.

73
Bob, K4TAX

On 12/31/2015 5:10 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On Thu,12/31/2015 11:29 AM, Barry N1EU wrote:
>> You'll get hum if your computer and K3 chassis aren't at the same
>> ground potential.
>
> Delete the word "ground." That has NOTHING to do with it.
>
>> For many, it may be preferable to use the rear panel Line Out, which
>> is transformer isolated.
>
> Hmmmm! The ancient and accepted way to bring all of the chassis at the
> same potential is to BOND THEM TOGETHER!  This is EE101, simple Ohm's
> Law. You do NOT need transformer isolation if the equipment is
> properly bonded! http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf Nothing but
> plain, ordinary copper wire.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC


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Re: KIO3B Audio Spec

Don Wilhelm-4
Bob and all,

Bonding to a common point may not cure hum and buzz.
Follow the advice of Jim Brown K9YC and bond from equipment to equipment
- following the path of the shields on unbalanced audio cables and RF coax.
In other words, bond from the computer to the K3 (or from the computer
to any interface box, and then the interface box to the K3).  The K3 to
amplifier if present, then to the tuner if present.

The bonding wires will take the majority of the current that *might*
otherwise flow on the shield of those cables and reduce the possibility
of noise coupling into the signals.

Whether you also bond to a common point in the station is an entirely
different matter.  That common point ground may do well for AC safety
and possible a measure of lightning protection, it will do nothing for
the coupling of hum and buzz onto the signal paths.

Jim often talks about the "pin 1 problem" which is part of the
situation, but providing an extra low impedance path direct from
equipment to equipment will do more to keep all pieces of your equipment
at the same relative potential than any other means.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/31/2015 6:36 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:

> Yes, this is correct.
>
> I have all of my station equipment bonded to the common point on the
> station power supply.   And I do not use any "ground" to the outside
> world from my 2nd floor station.  Works just great, all bands 160M -
> 23 cm, any power level to legal limit, any mode.
>
> 73
> Bob, K4TAX
>
> On 12/31/2015 5:10 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>> On Thu,12/31/2015 11:29 AM, Barry N1EU wrote:
>>> You'll get hum if your computer and K3 chassis aren't at the same
>>> ground potential.
>>

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Re: KIO3B Audio Spec

Bob McGraw - K4TAX
Don et al:

Well Jim and I are at 100% opposite positions on this point.

Bonding from equipment to equipment is a series circuit in which the
voltage divides across each value of R.  Thus none of the equipment will
be at zero potential.

By using a bond conductor from each piece of equipment to a common
point, this provides a star system which is endorsed by most audio and
system design specialists.   It provides the lowest resistance as all
conductive paths are parallel.

73
Bob, K4TAX

On 12/31/2015 6:32 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Bonding to a common point may not cure hum and buzz.
> Follow the advice of Jim Brown K9YC and bond from equipment to
> equipment - following the path of the shields on unbalanced audio
> cables and RF coax.


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Re: KIO3B Audio Spec

Elecraft mailing list
I've always believed in the star approach and completely agree with the
series circuit issue.

73, Doug -- K0DXV

On 12/31/2015 5:44 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:

> Don et al:
>
> Well Jim and I are at 100% opposite positions on this point.
>
> Bonding from equipment to equipment is a series circuit in which the
> voltage divides across each value of R.  Thus none of the equipment
> will be at zero potential.
>
> By using a bond conductor from each piece of equipment to a common
> point, this provides a star system which is endorsed by most audio and
> system design specialists.   It provides the lowest resistance as all
> conductive paths are parallel.
>
> 73
> Bob, K4TAX
>
> On 12/31/2015 6:32 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Bonding to a common point may not cure hum and buzz.
>> Follow the advice of Jim Brown K9YC and bond from equipment to
>> equipment - following the path of the shields on unbalanced audio
>> cables and RF coax.
>
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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Re: KIO3B Audio Spec

Jim Brown-10
On Thu,12/31/2015 6:11 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
> I've always believed in the star approach and completely agree with
> the series circuit issue.

Physics is not a matter of belief. I suggest that you study my tutorial.

73, Jim K9YC
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