KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

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KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Phil Hystad-3
Given the newness of the KXPA100 I am not sure if anyone has put it into a battery driven mobile operation yet.  But, I am still curious about the results and in particular power output on typical automotive 12 volt batteries (under alternator charge).  Assuming the Alternator keeps the voltage up for the KXPA100 is there an expectation that 100 watts can be delivered for mobile operation?

Thanks,
73, phil, K7PEH

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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Matt Zilmer-3
I've started testing the KX3/KXPA100 mobile configuration, but don't
have all the cabling in yet and it's not permanent.  This KXPA100 has
the ATU.  Antennas are Hustler on a custom vehicle mount.

The vehicle is a Honda Civic with a standard 12V electrical system.
Not seeing any issues with this particular setup.  Wiring to the
KXPA100 is 8 AWG, with two "transfers" to APPs at a relay enclosure
for power control in the trunk.  The source is the Civic's battery.
The KXPA is located in the trunk.

With the engine running, I am getting 100W.  During key down at full
power, measured voltage at the amp is showing 12.2V or more (depends
on whether the regulator decides it's battery charge time, I suspect).

With the engine off, I get between 11.4 and 11.8V at the amp with
power set at 60W or below.  Ymmv, because it would depend on the
battery's state of charge and any other loads on it.  I've run the
KXPA as high as 60W with battery-only, but I'm still in a test phase
and waiting on cabling to arrive.

73,
matt W6NIA

On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 09:47:03 -0800, you wrote:

>Given the newness of the KXPA100 I am not sure if anyone has put it into a battery driven mobile operation yet.  But, I am still curious about the results and in particular power output on typical automotive 12 volt batteries (under alternator charge).  Assuming the Alternator keeps the voltage up for the KXPA100 is there an expectation that 100 watts can be delivered for mobile operation?
>
>Thanks,
>73, phil, K7PEH
>
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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Jim Brown-10
On 1/12/2014 10:26 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
> Wiring to the
> KXPA100 is 8 AWG, with two "transfers" to APPs at a relay enclosure
> for power control in the trunk.  The source is the Civic's battery.
> The KXPA is located in the trunk.

Several thoughts about this. First, noise pickup on the power wiring
will be greatly reduced by making it twisted pair. Second, unless the
SWR is REALLY high, much less power will be lost in coax than in the DC
wiring. Third, ALL of this wiring should have common mode chokes on it
to further minimize noise pickup and RFI.

My strategy would be to locate the amp based on convenience, on making
the DC cable shorter, and on the practicality of paths for routing the
needed wiring.

I would use the best quality coax I could fit into the available wiring
routes. This is an application for the best quality transmitting coax
with a heavy copper braid shield.  Remember that the shielding provided
by coax depends upon a shield that has very low resistance and very good
uniformity.  Belden 9258 would be a great choice -- it's a RG8X form
factor (0.242-in o.d.), with #16 stranded copper center and a 95% copper
braid shield.

Finally, there is probably little benefit to bonding the radio or the
amp to the frame of the vehicle. Thanks to the excessive application of
paint and the use of lots of non-metallic parts, chassis bonding of
modern vehicles is flaky at best, and a train wreck at worst (it is in
my 2006 Toyota big SUV). Indeed, one of the major challenges in a modern
vehicle is finding enough conductive structure to form a counterpoise
for an HF antenna.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Matt Zilmer-3
Thanks, Jim.  Many of us will benefit from your thoughts.  When the
time comes to make a permanent installation with the KXPA100, I'll be
sure and re-read your email.  

I already have the KX3 set up in the mobile.  It is working fine, but
antenna efficiency isn't very good with the Hustler type.  The amp
will give a good boost to output.  Receiving is already pretty good
due to the KX3's performance.

73,
matt W6NIA

On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 10:57:14 -0800, you wrote:

>On 1/12/2014 10:26 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>> Wiring to the
>> KXPA100 is 8 AWG, with two "transfers" to APPs at a relay enclosure
>> for power control in the trunk.  The source is the Civic's battery.
>> The KXPA is located in the trunk.
>
>Several thoughts about this. First, noise pickup on the power wiring
>will be greatly reduced by making it twisted pair. Second, unless the
>SWR is REALLY high, much less power will be lost in coax than in the DC
>wiring. Third, ALL of this wiring should have common mode chokes on it
>to further minimize noise pickup and RFI.
>
>My strategy would be to locate the amp based on convenience, on making
>the DC cable shorter, and on the practicality of paths for routing the
>needed wiring.
>
>I would use the best quality coax I could fit into the available wiring
>routes. This is an application for the best quality transmitting coax
>with a heavy copper braid shield.  Remember that the shielding provided
>by coax depends upon a shield that has very low resistance and very good
>uniformity.  Belden 9258 would be a great choice -- it's a RG8X form
>factor (0.242-in o.d.), with #16 stranded copper center and a 95% copper
>braid shield.
>
>Finally, there is probably little benefit to bonding the radio or the
>amp to the frame of the vehicle. Thanks to the excessive application of
>paint and the use of lots of non-metallic parts, chassis bonding of
>modern vehicles is flaky at best, and a train wreck at worst (it is in
>my 2006 Toyota big SUV). Indeed, one of the major challenges in a modern
>vehicle is finding enough conductive structure to form a counterpoise
>for an HF antenna.
>
>73, Jim K9YC
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Phil Hystad-3
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
Jim,

Thanks for the suggestions on reducing noise.  I can put common mode chokes (at least I think I can) on my DC wiring but I cannot effectively put in twisted pair unless I take out what exists now and replace it with twisted pair.  Therefore, hoping not to have to do that I ask the following question.

Question:  How much difference will the twisted pair have in reducing noise versus having common mode chokes only?

Currently with my Icom 706 the noise due to ignition and other sources is pretty high but the noise blanker does real good and getting it down to acceptable levels though not dead quiet as the case if the engine is off.

I have a 2004 Chevy HD2500 (3/4 ton) crew cab pickup truck.  The Hi-Q antenna is mounted on the rear (driver's side) on top of the side panel with my own custom made mount.  I have ground straps at a number of locations and ground for the Hi-Q is very good (bolted to the frame itself after cleaning the frame for good contacts.  The frame is also grounded to the under side of the body where I have cleaned off attach points to achieve good ground contact.

73, phil, K7PEH


On Jan 12, 2014, at 10:57 AM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 1/12/2014 10:26 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>> Wiring to the
>> KXPA100 is 8 AWG, with two "transfers" to APPs at a relay enclosure
>> for power control in the trunk.  The source is the Civic's battery.
>> The KXPA is located in the trunk.
>
> Several thoughts about this. First, noise pickup on the power wiring will be greatly reduced by making it twisted pair. Second, unless the SWR is REALLY high, much less power will be lost in coax than in the DC wiring. Third, ALL of this wiring should have common mode chokes on it to further minimize noise pickup and RFI.
>
> My strategy would be to locate the amp based on convenience, on making the DC cable shorter, and on the practicality of paths for routing the needed wiring.
>
> I would use the best quality coax I could fit into the available wiring routes. This is an application for the best quality transmitting coax with a heavy copper braid shield.  Remember that the shielding provided by coax depends upon a shield that has very low resistance and very good uniformity.  Belden 9258 would be a great choice -- it's a RG8X form factor (0.242-in o.d.), with #16 stranded copper center and a 95% copper braid shield.
>
> Finally, there is probably little benefit to bonding the radio or the amp to the frame of the vehicle. Thanks to the excessive application of paint and the use of lots of non-metallic parts, chassis bonding of modern vehicles is flaky at best, and a train wreck at worst (it is in my 2006 Toyota big SUV). Indeed, one of the major challenges in a modern vehicle is finding enough conductive structure to form a counterpoise for an HF antenna.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Phil Hystad-3
In reply to this post by Matt Zilmer-3
Matt:

Wow, a Honda Civic -- I think my Hi-Q antenna might tip over a Honda Civic :-)

My vehicle is a 3/4 ton pickup truck, Chevy Silverado HD2500 Crew Cab so I have a large
metal ground available.

Thanks for your comments on your experience so far though. I know that my truck
battery and charging system is pretty good and robust so I am assuming that I should
easily achieve full output on the KX3+KXPA100.

You raise another question though.  What kind of mobile antenna?  Screwdriver?

If a screwdriver antenna, what method do you employe for tuning the antenna
itself.  Currently with my Icom 706 I use the N2VZ Turbo Tuner product but a
version specific to the Icom 706.

73, phil, K7PEH


On Jan 12, 2014, at 10:26 AM, Matt Zilmer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've started testing the KX3/KXPA100 mobile configuration, but don't
> have all the cabling in yet and it's not permanent.  This KXPA100 has
> the ATU.  Antennas are Hustler on a custom vehicle mount.
>
> The vehicle is a Honda Civic with a standard 12V electrical system.
> Not seeing any issues with this particular setup.  Wiring to the
> KXPA100 is 8 AWG, with two "transfers" to APPs at a relay enclosure
> for power control in the trunk.  The source is the Civic's battery.
> The KXPA is located in the trunk.
>
> With the engine running, I am getting 100W.  During key down at full
> power, measured voltage at the amp is showing 12.2V or more (depends
> on whether the regulator decides it's battery charge time, I suspect).
>
> With the engine off, I get between 11.4 and 11.8V at the amp with
> power set at 60W or below.  Ymmv, because it would depend on the
> battery's state of charge and any other loads on it.  I've run the
> KXPA as high as 60W with battery-only, but I'm still in a test phase
> and waiting on cabling to arrive.
>
> 73,
> matt W6NIA
>
> On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 09:47:03 -0800, you wrote:
>
>> Given the newness of the KXPA100 I am not sure if anyone has put it into a battery driven mobile operation yet.  But, I am still curious about the results and in particular power output on typical automotive 12 volt batteries (under alternator charge).  Assuming the Alternator keeps the voltage up for the KXPA100 is there an expectation that 100 watts can be delivered for mobile operation?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3
On 1/12/2014 11:49 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Thanks for the suggestions on reducing noise.  I can put common mode chokes (at least I think I can) on my DC wiring but I cannot effectively put in twisted pair unless I take out what exists now and replace it with twisted pair.  Therefore, hoping not to have to do that I ask the following question.
>
> Question:  How much difference will the twisted pair have in reducing noise versus having common mode chokes only?

Twisting strongly rejects differential-mode coupling of the noise --
that is, the RF trash that appears between DC+ and DC-. There are two
reasons why that matters. First, electronic systems in many vehicles are
susceptible to RF, are poorly filtered on both DC and signal wiring, and
misbehave when they pick up RF. The systems in my Toyota big SUV went
into "limp home" mode with 50 watts on 20M. To get running, I had to
remove the battery terminals from the vehicle so that the computers
would reboot.

The second way in which differential mode hurts us is if any of the gear
on that DC is poorly filtered on its DC leads. That would let noise into
our rigs.

> Currently with my Icom 706 the noise due to ignition and other sources is pretty high but the noise blanker does real good and getting it down to acceptable levels though not dead quiet as the case if the engine is off.

Noise blankers are fine -- UNTIL a big signal outside of the RX bandpass
pulses them. Then they're useless. The dual-mode blanker in the K3 is
much better than most. I haven't used the KX3 enough to know -- I don't
own one yet -- but I suspect it's pretty good

> I have a 2004 Chevy HD2500 (3/4 ton) crew cab pickup truck.  The Hi-Q antenna is mounted on the rear (driver's side) on top of the side panel with my own custom made mount.  I have ground straps at a number of locations and ground for the Hi-Q is very good (bolted to the frame itself after cleaning the frame for good contacts.  The frame is also grounded to the under side of the body where I have cleaned off attach points to achieve good ground contact

All that frame bonding is critically important for making the antenna
work (by providing a counterpoise for the antenna), and it MIGHT help
with RF suppression.  Caps added for emphasis of key words.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Matt Zilmer-3
In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3
Oh... probably not.  I've seen a couple Civics with Hi-Qs.  Both had
custom mounts, obviously.  The main problem with a smaller car isn't
the outside, it's the available space *inside*.

I've been using Hustler for about two years now, with fair results.
I'm not happy about the efficiency.

I'm sure a commerical truck has a solid electrical system, pretty much
all of them do.  Suggest you use 8 AWG or better to get to the KXPA
and/or any KX3 / other radio power distribution box though.

73,
matt W6NIA

On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:56:45 -0800, you wrote:

>Matt:
>
>Wow, a Honda Civic -- I think my Hi-Q antenna might tip over a Honda Civic :-)
>
>My vehicle is a 3/4 ton pickup truck, Chevy Silverado HD2500 Crew Cab so I have a large
>metal ground available.
>
>Thanks for your comments on your experience so far though. I know that my truck
>battery and charging system is pretty good and robust so I am assuming that I should
>easily achieve full output on the KX3+KXPA100.
>
>You raise another question though.  What kind of mobile antenna?  Screwdriver?
>
>If a screwdriver antenna, what method do you employe for tuning the antenna
>itself.  Currently with my Icom 706 I use the N2VZ Turbo Tuner product but a
>version specific to the Icom 706.
>
>73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
>On Jan 12, 2014, at 10:26 AM, Matt Zilmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I've started testing the KX3/KXPA100 mobile configuration, but don't
>> have all the cabling in yet and it's not permanent.  This KXPA100 has
>> the ATU.  Antennas are Hustler on a custom vehicle mount.
>>
>> The vehicle is a Honda Civic with a standard 12V electrical system.
>> Not seeing any issues with this particular setup.  Wiring to the
>> KXPA100 is 8 AWG, with two "transfers" to APPs at a relay enclosure
>> for power control in the trunk.  The source is the Civic's battery.
>> The KXPA is located in the trunk.
>>
>> With the engine running, I am getting 100W.  During key down at full
>> power, measured voltage at the amp is showing 12.2V or more (depends
>> on whether the regulator decides it's battery charge time, I suspect).
>>
>> With the engine off, I get between 11.4 and 11.8V at the amp with
>> power set at 60W or below.  Ymmv, because it would depend on the
>> battery's state of charge and any other loads on it.  I've run the
>> KXPA as high as 60W with battery-only, but I'm still in a test phase
>> and waiting on cabling to arrive.
>>
>> 73,
>> matt W6NIA
>>
>> On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 09:47:03 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>>> Given the newness of the KXPA100 I am not sure if anyone has put it into a battery driven mobile operation yet.  But, I am still curious about the results and in particular power output on typical automotive 12 volt batteries (under alternator charge).  Assuming the Alternator keeps the voltage up for the KXPA100 is there an expectation that 100 watts can be delivered for mobile operation?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Jim Brown-10
On 1/12/2014 12:11 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
> I'm sure a commerical truck has a solid electrical system, pretty much all of them do.

Depends on what you call solid.  Almost every semi I've passed on the
highway when I had an HF rig in the car was a massive noise source.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Matt Zilmer-3
Hm, guess I just meant capacity for the DC current.  Diesel injection
(in some) and fuel pump makes a ton of RF too.

On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 12:26:10 -0800, you wrote:

>On 1/12/2014 12:11 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>> I'm sure a commerical truck has a solid electrical system, pretty much all of them do.
>
>Depends on what you call solid.  Almost every semi I've passed on the
>highway when I had an HF rig in the car was a massive noise source.
>
>73, Jim K9YC
>
>______________________________________________________________
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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

N8MSA
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 3:26:10 PM
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

>On 1/12/2014 12:11 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>> I'm sure a commerical truck has a solid electrical system, pretty much all of them do.
>
> Depends on what you call solid. Almost every semi I've passed on the
>highway when I had an HF rig in the car was a massive noise source.
>
>73, Jim K9YC

Commercial vehicles, in fact almost all modern over-the-road vehicles, emit all kinds of RF noise. OEM's primary noise concerns relate to broadcast bands, and they're not really concerned about anything else. Believe me, as I spend a couple a days a month in Detroit OEM's EMC chambers.

73,

Mike - N8MSA


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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

mcduffie
In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3
On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 14:35:46 -0700, Gary McDuffie <[hidden email]>
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:53:01 +0000 (UTC), [hidden email] wrote:

> Commercial vehicles, in fact almost all modern over-the-road vehicles, emit all kinds of RF noise. OEM's primary noise concerns relate to broadcast bands, and they're not really concerned about anything else. Believe me, as I spend a couple a days a month in Detroit OEM's EMC chambers.

Every time I pass a semi on the highway, I can hear junk coming from the
engine computer, or something, on VHF.  It does have a carrier and isn't
just injectors.  That's an additional noise.  It doesn't matter what
repeater freq I'm monitoring, squelch is open from just about the cab
door until I'm clear of his bumper.  Pretty trashy.  I don't know how
some of these truckers run VHF gears in them.

Gary
--
--
http://ag0n.net
3055: http://ag0n.net/irlp/3055
NodeOp Help Page: http://ag0n.net/irlp
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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

tnnyswy
>>> Pretty trashy. <<<

Gary, what you are hearing coming from those semi is the "Trashy" signal from a Inverter with a Modified Sine Wave.
A lot of us use Laptops, TV and other gadgets, that require an inverter in our trucks.
These inverters are left running as a constant power source for mainly the Laptop ( Laptop is not in use when driving ) while going down the road.
To the average man in the street, Pure Sine or Modified Sine inverter is of little importance and cost is what attracts the average person.
I am yet to find a Pure Sine Inverter for sale in any of these Truck Stop, or even some of the Big stores such as Best Buy, Sears or even Walmart.
They can be had, but one has to special order them.

((((73)))) Milverton / W9MMS.





On Sunday, January 12, 2014 3:36 PM, AG0N-3055 <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 14:35:46 -0700, Gary McDuffie <[hidden email]>

>wrote:
>
>On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:53:01 +0000 (UTC), [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> Commercial vehicles, in fact almost all modern over-the-road vehicles, emit all kinds of RF noise. OEM's primary noise concerns relate to broadcast bands, and they're not really concerned about anything else. Believe me, as I spend a couple a days a month in Detroit OEM's EMC chambers.
>
>Every time I pass a semi on the highway, I can hear junk coming from the
>engine computer, or something, on VHF.  It does have a carrier and isn't
>just injectors.  That's an additional noise.  It doesn't matter what
>repeater freq I'm monitoring,
 squelch is open from just about the cab

>door until I'm clear of his bumper.  Pretty trashy.  I don't know how
>some of these truckers run VHF gears in them.
>
>Gary
>--
>--
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>3055: http://ag0n.net/irlp/3055
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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Matt Zilmer-3
Actually, they're not special order.  For example, Xantrex can deliver
immiedately.  I use the RS-400 (now numbered XS-400) for mobile AC
power using 12V input, with less than 3% THD.  This one is rated 400W
with surge to 800W (rated, I haven't tested it for surge).

http://xantrex.com/power-products-support/document-downloads/product-type/power-inverters.aspx

73,
matt W6NIA

On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 18:02:54 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>>>> Pretty trashy. <<<
>
>Gary, what you are hearing coming from those semi is the "Trashy" signal from a Inverter with a Modified Sine Wave.
>A lot of us use Laptops, TV and other gadgets, that require an inverter in our trucks.
>These inverters are left running as a constant power source for mainly the Laptop ( Laptop is not in use when driving ) while going down the road.
>To the average man in the street, Pure Sine or Modified Sine inverter is of little importance and cost is what attracts the average person.
>I am yet to find a Pure Sine Inverter for sale in any of these Truck Stop, or even some of the Big stores such as Best Buy, Sears or even Walmart.
>They can be had, but one has to special order them.
>
>((((73)))) Milverton / W9MMS.
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sunday, January 12, 2014 3:36 PM, AG0N-3055 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 14:35:46 -0700, Gary McDuffie <[hidden email]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:53:01 +0000 (UTC), [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>>> Commercial vehicles, in fact almost all modern over-the-road vehicles, emit all kinds of RF noise. OEM's primary noise concerns relate to broadcast bands, and they're not really concerned about anything else. Believe me, as I spend a couple a days a month in Detroit OEM's EMC chambers.
>>
>>Every time I pass a semi on the highway, I can hear junk coming from the
>>engine computer, or something, on VHF.  It does have a carrier and isn't
>>just injectors.  That's an additional noise.  It doesn't matter what
>>repeater freq I'm monitoring,
> squelch is open from just about the cab
>>door until I'm clear of his bumper.  Pretty trashy.  I don't know how
>>some of these truckers run VHF gears in them.
>>
>>Gary
>>--
>>--
>>http://ag0n.net
>>3055: http://ag0n.net/irlp/3055
>>NodeOp Help Page: http://ag0n.net/irlp
>>______________________________________________________________
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

tnnyswy
>>>> Xantrex can deliver
immiedately. <<<<

Matt, you reinforced my point of not being able to walk into a Walmart, Sears or Best Buy and pick one up off the shelf.
There is no disputing that a Modified Sine Wave Inverter is very NOISY!
And! A great majority of people buys the Modified Sine Inverters because they are cheaper, and easier to obtain.
Also, the average guy doesn't even have the slightest idea of noise that is emitted from these beasts.

((((73)))) Milverton.





On Sunday, January 12, 2014 8:38 PM, Matt Zilmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
Actually, they're not special order.  For example, Xantrex can deliver

>immiedately.  I use the RS-400 (now numbered XS-400) for mobile AC
>power using 12V input, with less than 3% THD.  This one is rated 400W
>with surge to 800W (rated, I haven't tested it for surge).
>
>http://xantrex.com/power-products-support/document-downloads/product-type/power-inverters.aspx
>
>73,
>matt W6NIA
>
>On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 18:02:54 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
>
>>>>> Pretty trashy. <<<
>>
>>Gary, what you are hearing coming from those semi is the "Trashy" signal from
 a Inverter with a Modified Sine Wave.

>>A lot of us use Laptops, TV and other gadgets, that require an inverter in our trucks.
>>These inverters are left running as a constant power source for mainly the Laptop ( Laptop is not in use when driving ) while going down the road.
>>To the average man in the street, Pure Sine or Modified Sine inverter is of little importance and cost is what attracts the average person.
>>I am yet to find a Pure Sine Inverter for sale in any of these Truck Stop, or even some of the Big stores such as Best Buy, Sears or even Walmart.
>>They can be had, but one has to special order them.
>>
>>((((73)))) Milverton / W9MMS.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Sunday, January 12, 2014 3:36 PM, AG0N-3055 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 14:35:46 -0700, Gary McDuffie <[hidden email]>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 20:53:01 +0000 (UTC), [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>>> Commercial vehicles, in fact almost all modern over-the-road vehicles, emit all kinds of RF noise. OEM's primary noise concerns relate to broadcast bands, and they're not really concerned about anything else. Believe me, as I spend a couple a days a month in Detroit OEM's EMC chambers.
>>>
>>>Every
 time I pass a semi on the highway, I can hear junk coming from the

>>>engine computer, or something, on VHF.  It does have a carrier and isn't
>>>just injectors.  That's an additional noise.  It doesn't matter what
>>>repeater freq I'm monitoring,
>> squelch is open from just about the cab
>>>door until I'm clear of his bumper.  Pretty trashy.  I don't know how
>>>some of these truckers run VHF gears in them.
>>>
>>>Gary
>>>--
>>>--
>>>http://ag0n.net
>>>3055: http://ag0n.net/irlp/3055
>>>NodeOp Help Page: http://ag0n.net/irlp
>>>______________________________________________________________
>>>Elecraft mailing list
>>>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>______________________________________________________________
>>Elecraft mailing list
>>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Edward R Cole
In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3
Matt,

The dc wiring is not doing the job.  You are seeing 11.2-11.8v
running 60w!  The battery under load should hold 13.2v if it is in
good condition and fully charged.  That is a voltage drop of
1.6v.  You should not see that using awg-8 wire.  You mention a relay
in the trunk.  What is the wiring from battery to relays?

To find the problem first measure your battery voltage with engine
running and with it off.  Measure voltage at the amp when
transmitting 100w with engine running and off.  How much drop do you
see from the battery?  I would expect only about half a volt.  Your
battery should hold about 13v with engine off and transmitting full
power.  If it is dropping below 12v then the battery needs replacement.

You said it shows 12.2v at the amp when engine running.  That is too
much voltage drop from the battery.  You should see at least that
with engine off and transmitting.  The amp will not perform at full
power with only 11.2-11.8v.  It is also harder on the transmitting
transistors as they have to draw more current to get power output and
that translates to running hotter!

Did you connect the awg wires directly to the battery posts?  You
should.  Too often folks tie off wiring under the dash at the fuse
block or connect to the cigarette lighter; those are bad ideas for
running high power radios.

Is this really awg-8? Resistance in 100-feet of awg-8 is 0.0628
ohms.  Assuming you used 20-feet that would reduce to 0.013
ohms.  Double that to include the resistance in the negative lead and
its 0.26 ohms.  If the amp draws 200w dc load at 12.5v that is a
current load of 16 amps.  The voltage drop = 0.026 x 16 = 0.4v

Another tip is fusing both pos and neg leads near the battery
connection.  That protects the radio equipment from high current
loads from other devices in the car (like a bad ground on the starter).

I run 12v in my shack with a 16-foot dc wire run to a 30amp main
fuse.  I can run up to 400w dc load with this.  My PS runs 14.2v and
I have 13.5v at the main fuse under load.  I run welding cable to
accomplish this.

73, Ed - KL7UW

From: Matt Zilmer <[hidden email]>
To: Phil Hystad <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I've started testing the KX3/KXPA100 mobile configuration, but don't
have all the cabling in yet and it's not permanent.  This KXPA100 has
the ATU.  Antennas are Hustler on a custom vehicle mount.

The vehicle is a Honda Civic with a standard 12V electrical system.
Not seeing any issues with this particular setup.  Wiring to the
KXPA100 is 8 AWG, with two "transfers" to APPs at a relay enclosure
for power control in the trunk.  The source is the Civic's battery.
The KXPA is located in the trunk.

With the engine running, I am getting 100W.  During key down at full
power, measured voltage at the amp is showing 12.2V or more (depends
on whether the regulator decides it's battery charge time, I suspect).

With the engine off, I get between 11.4 and 11.8V at the amp with
power set at 60W or below.  Ymmv, because it would depend on the
battery's state of charge and any other loads on it.  I've run the
KXPA as high as 60W with battery-only, but I'm still in a test phase
and waiting on cabling to arrive.

73,
matt W6NIA



73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
     "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
     [hidden email]

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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by tnnyswy
On 1/12/2014 7:34 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> There is no disputing that a Modified Sine Wave Inverter is very NOISY!

Say a very long prayer of thanks to "Small Government" that has made the
FCC toothless by cutting its budget to next to nothing so that it cannot
enforce its own Rules. Ask yourself -- "Whose back is "big government
being gotten off of?"  It's the back of unscrupulous business, not us.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Administrator
Folks, let's keep politics and complaints about the government off this reflector.  Further discussion of those topics will result in immediate thread closure.

Now back to our KXPA100 mobile discussion..

73,

Eric
List moderator etc.
elecraft.com
_..._



> On Jan 13, 2014, at 12:16 AM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 1/12/2014 7:34 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> There is no disputing that a Modified Sine Wave Inverter is very NOISY!
>
> Say a very long prayer of thanks to "Small Government" that has made the FCC toothless by cutting its budget to next to nothing so that it cannot enforce its own Rules. Ask yourself -- "Whose back is "big government being gotten off of?"  It's the back of unscrupulous business, not us.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Edward R Cole
In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3
I need to correct some of my last statements on this topic (thanks to
Dave AB9CA/4 for pointing them out).

I apparently was thinking of other battery chemistry than lead-acid
batteries.  A check with wikipedia reveals that full charge voltage,
open-ckt, is 2.1v per cell (12.6v for auto battery).  Fully
discharged open-ckt voltage per cell is 1.95v (11.7v) and 1.75v
(10.5v) when loaded.

Matt was seeing full RF output with 12.2v at the amp.

But that was with his engine running (alternator charging) which
ought to deliver higher voltage to the amp (if cable losses are low -
something like 0.5v drop if wiring is 8-awg).  Alternators run at
14.2v in full charging.  They have a voltage regulator that drops
this when battery reaches full charge (not sure what voltage that is
but seems I've seen >13v).

I do not recall what gauge of dc wire was run to the 100w Motorola
VHF trunk-mount radios we used to install for police and fire, but
they held power pretty well with engine off (with fresh battery
charge).  I am thinking the wires were 12ga awg and 17-foot long
before cutting to length in each install.

The rest of my suggestions for testing and connections are still good.

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
     "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
     [hidden email]

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Re: KXPA100 Mobile Operations -- Power Output

Matt Zilmer-3
I was seeing 12.2V with 60W out on 20m with KX3/KXPA, but this was
measured at the relay enclosure (near the KXPA), and it had another
10A or so as loads besides (2m rig at 75W).  Didn't measure the
current, but it was probably around 30A total.  This is with the
battery alone.

I also saw full output (100W) with the KXPA and KX3 alone, with no
engine running.  Voltage at the relay was 12.3-12.4V.

With the engine running, no problem.

The DVM has never been calibrated, that I know of.  If it has, it's
been > 10 years.  It might read low or high.

I'm probably going to run a second Optima 55AH battery with its own
branch charging circuit, just for the KX3 and KXPA100.  This is a
future project, not something I have the time or money for now.

I'm using 8 AWG, and this is also what Moto used for Micors, Syntors,
etc., if 100W class transceivers.  I used to run a 100W UHF Syntor,
but gave it up to get some trunk space back.

73,
matt W6NIA



On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:17:49 -0900, you wrote:

>I need to correct some of my last statements on this topic (thanks to
>Dave AB9CA/4 for pointing them out).
>
>I apparently was thinking of other battery chemistry than lead-acid
>batteries.  A check with wikipedia reveals that full charge voltage,
>open-ckt, is 2.1v per cell (12.6v for auto battery).  Fully
>discharged open-ckt voltage per cell is 1.95v (11.7v) and 1.75v
>(10.5v) when loaded.
>
>Matt was seeing full RF output with 12.2v at the amp.
>
>But that was with his engine running (alternator charging) which
>ought to deliver higher voltage to the amp (if cable losses are low -
>something like 0.5v drop if wiring is 8-awg).  Alternators run at
>14.2v in full charging.  They have a voltage regulator that drops
>this when battery reaches full charge (not sure what voltage that is
>but seems I've seen >13v).
>
>I do not recall what gauge of dc wire was run to the 100w Motorola
>VHF trunk-mount radios we used to install for police and fire, but
>they held power pretty well with engine off (with fresh battery
>charge).  I am thinking the wires were 12ga awg and 17-foot long
>before cutting to length in each install.
>
>The rest of my suggestions for testing and connections are still good.
>
>73, Ed - KL7UW
>http://www.kl7uw.com
>     "Kits made by KL7UW"
>Dubus Mag business:
>     [hidden email]
>
>______________________________________________________________
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>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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