Mobile high power

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Mobile high power

Charlie T, K3ICH
Has anyone considered the liability of running very high power mobile?
What if you're running a KW, and gave a call on 20M.  Suddenly,  the guys
brakes in the vehicle next to you locked up causing a multiple vehicle
crash?
I realize this is an extremely hypothetical and unlikely case, but these
smart vehicle computer systems can't be all THAT immune to all sorts of RFI.

I know the cruise control my 2000 Dakota would mysteriously jump 5 MPH if I
keyed up with only 25 watts on 222MHz.
It would return to it's previous setting when I un-keyed.   VERY
disconcerting eh?

73, Charlie k3ICH



This begs the question: Why KX3s with KPA500s? That is what I use in my
mobile station and it provides about 250W due to the FCC amplifier gain
requirements. I am fine with it, as that is what I have and higher power may
affect the vehicle. I have seen someone post a modification to remove an
attenuator in the amp and recalibrate the power meter, but I would assume
that Elecraft will not be allowed to do that, as the FCC Cert holder.

73,

Mark
W7MLG
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Re: Mobile high power

wayne burdick
Administrator
My Prius is so dependent on embedded processors that I take no chances -- I run only 10 W mobile. Yes, it's harder to make contacts, but my car doesn't have E-peleptic seizures.

Computers in general are not very RFI-proof. I discovered this the hard way when I was running 100 W to an end-fed wire directly connected to the radio. Disks spin up, mysterious boot sequences get kicked off, NSFW images flicker subliminally across the screen (or was that just my imagination?).

Wayne
N6KR


> On May 6, 2019, at 7:22 AM, Charlie T <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Has anyone considered the liability of running very high power mobile?
> What if you're running a KW, and gave a call on 20M.  Suddenly,  the guys
> brakes in the vehicle next to you locked up causing a multiple vehicle
> crash?
> I realize this is an extremely hypothetical and unlikely case, but these
> smart vehicle computer systems can't be all THAT immune to all sorts of RFI.
>
> I know the cruise control my 2000 Dakota would mysteriously jump 5 MPH if I
> keyed up with only 25 watts on 222MHz.
> It would return to it's previous setting when I un-keyed.   VERY
> disconcerting eh?
>
> 73, Charlie k3ICH

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Re: Mobile high power

Bob McGraw - K4TAX
In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH
Many of today's vehicles rely on an internal wireless network for
communications from various components in a vehicle.  My truck has a
network that communicates from the rear end to the computer up front. 
There are no wires or cables in that regard.   Although it seems immune
to most RF I can hear the data on my HT around the truck.    What will
they think of next?    And the newer cars that provide lane, speed and
distance control.  Keeps one in the lane and slows as the vehicle in
front slows.     Bring me coffee and donuts and wake me up when we
arrive.  Is that next?

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 5/6/2019 9:22 AM, Charlie T wrote:

> Has anyone considered the liability of running very high power mobile?
> What if you're running a KW, and gave a call on 20M.  Suddenly,  the guys
> brakes in the vehicle next to you locked up causing a multiple vehicle
> crash?
> I realize this is an extremely hypothetical and unlikely case, but these
> smart vehicle computer systems can't be all THAT immune to all sorts of RFI.
>
> I know the cruise control my 2000 Dakota would mysteriously jump 5 MPH if I
> keyed up with only 25 watts on 222MHz.
> It would return to it's previous setting when I un-keyed.   VERY
> disconcerting eh?
>
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>
>
>
> This begs the question: Why KX3s with KPA500s? That is what I use in my
> mobile station and it provides about 250W due to the FCC amplifier gain
> requirements. I am fine with it, as that is what I have and higher power may
> affect the vehicle. I have seen someone post a modification to remove an
> attenuator in the amp and recalibrate the power meter, but I would assume
> that Elecraft will not be allowed to do that, as the FCC Cert holder.
>
> 73,
>
> Mark
> W7MLG
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Mobile high power

Elecraft mailing list
In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH
More likely you would fry his cars computer and he would be dead in the
water. But with electronics and RFI anything could happen. With my luck
it would be my brakes that locked and I'd be rear ended.?? Steve kb1chu

On 5/6/2019 10:22 AM, Charlie T wrote:

> Has anyone considered the liability of running very high power mobile?
> What if you're running a KW, and gave a call on 20M.  Suddenly,  the guys
> brakes in the vehicle next to you locked up causing a multiple vehicle
> crash?
> I realize this is an extremely hypothetical and unlikely case, but these
> smart vehicle computer systems can't be all THAT immune to all sorts of RFI.
>
> I know the cruise control my 2000 Dakota would mysteriously jump 5 MPH if I
> keyed up with only 25 watts on 222MHz.
> It would return to it's previous setting when I un-keyed.   VERY
> disconcerting eh?
>
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>
>
>
> This begs the question: Why KX3s with KPA500s? That is what I use in my
> mobile station and it provides about 250W due to the FCC amplifier gain
> requirements. I am fine with it, as that is what I have and higher power may
> affect the vehicle. I have seen someone post a modification to remove an
> attenuator in the amp and recalibrate the power meter, but I would assume
> that Elecraft will not be allowed to do that, as the FCC Cert holder.
>
> 73,
>
> Mark
> W7MLG
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Mobile high power

k6mkf
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
I think there is the possibility of great mischief if autonomous vehicles lack sufficient RFI protection.

What implications might there be for mobile Amateur Radio operation when autonomous vehicles are in wide-spread use?

-- 73 de Mike Flowers, K6MKF, NCDXC - "It's about DX!"

> On May 6, 2019, at 8:31 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My Prius is so dependent on embedded processors that I take no chances -- I run only 10 W mobile. Yes, it's harder to make contacts, but my car doesn't have E-peleptic seizures.
>
> Computers in general are not very RFI-proof. I discovered this the hard way when I was running 100 W to an end-fed wire directly connected to the radio. Disks spin up, mysterious boot sequences get kicked off, NSFW images flicker subliminally across the screen (or was that just my imagination?).
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>> On May 6, 2019, at 7:22 AM, Charlie T <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Has anyone considered the liability of running very high power mobile?
>> What if you're running a KW, and gave a call on 20M.  Suddenly,  the guys
>> brakes in the vehicle next to you locked up causing a multiple vehicle
>> crash?
>> I realize this is an extremely hypothetical and unlikely case, but these
>> smart vehicle computer systems can't be all THAT immune to all sorts of RFI.
>>
>> I know the cruise control my 2000 Dakota would mysteriously jump 5 MPH if I
>> keyed up with only 25 watts on 222MHz.
>> It would return to it's previous setting when I un-keyed.   VERY
>> disconcerting eh?
>>
>> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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Re: Mobile high power

Elecraft mailing list
 There are implications for fixed-location operators as well. I can only run about 175W into my (very) shortinverted-L on 630m - above that, I trip the car alarm on my upscale European-made SUV parked in the driveway.I'm in a fairly crowded neighborhood - house lots are on the order of 1/5th of an acre - with a condo complexnext door to me, which generates a lot of slow speed traffic, so it's quite likely that an RF-susceptible vehiclecould have an interesting experience if I should happen to key up on JT9 while it's rolling by the house.(My EIRP is about 1.25W, 6dB below the legal limit).
73,
Brandy, N1HO (EL96xh)

Mike Flowers, K6MKF wrote:
What implications might there be for mobile Amateur Radio operation when autonomous vehicles are in wide-spread use?

-- 73 de Mike Flowers, K6MKF, NCDXC - "It's about DX!"


 
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Re: Mobile high power

wayne burdick
Administrator
Ham radio as stealth EMP weapon. Not good.

Wayne


> On May 6, 2019, at 9:02 AM, Bayard Coolidge, N1HO via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> There are implications for fixed-location operators as well. I can only run about 175W into my (very) shortinverted-L on 630m - above that, I trip the car alarm on my upscale European-made SUV parked in the driveway.I'm in a fairly crowded neighborhood - house lots are on the order of 1/5th of an acre - with a condo complexnext door to me, which generates a lot of slow speed traffic, so it's quite likely that an RF-susceptible vehiclecould have an interesting experience if I should happen to key up on JT9 while it's rolling by the house.(My EIRP is about 1.25W, 6dB below the legal limit).
> 73,
> Brandy, N1HO (EL96xh)
>
> Mike Flowers, K6MKF wrote:
> What implications might there be for mobile Amateur Radio operation when autonomous vehicles are in wide-spread use?
>
> -- 73 de Mike Flowers, K6MKF, NCDXC - "It's about DX!"
>


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Re: Mobile high power

Alan Bloom
In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH
Normally when you buy a used, tube-type kilowatt amplifier you don't
think to ask if it has been used mobile.

I once bought a used (actually VERY used) Drake L4B amplifier that had
been owned by Frank W6HWL "Highway Louie".  He had a big old Cadillac
that had been fitted with the extra-large alternator for the towing kit
to support his high-power mobile station.  Legend has it that he would
sometimes set overhanging tree branches on fire because of the corona
discharge from the end of the antenna.

Fortunately cars didn't have a lot of electronics in those days.

Alan N1AL


On 5/6/19 7:22 AM, Charlie T wrote:
> Has anyone considered the liability of running very high power mobile?
>

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Tox
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Re: Mobile high power

Tox
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
Tire sensors are wireless, and the protocol has been reverse engineered.
Interesting reading in the early articles.

On Mon, May 6, 2019, 9:06 AM Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ham radio as stealth EMP weapon. Not good.
>
> Wayne
>
>
> > On May 6, 2019, at 9:02 AM, Bayard Coolidge, N1HO via Elecraft <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > There are implications for fixed-location operators as well. I can only
> run about 175W into my (very) shortinverted-L on 630m - above that, I trip
> the car alarm on my upscale European-made SUV parked in the driveway.I'm in
> a fairly crowded neighborhood - house lots are on the order of 1/5th of an
> acre - with a condo complexnext door to me, which generates a lot of slow
> speed traffic, so it's quite likely that an RF-susceptible vehiclecould
> have an interesting experience if I should happen to key up on JT9 while
> it's rolling by the house.(My EIRP is about 1.25W, 6dB below the legal
> limit).
> > 73,
> > Brandy, N1HO (EL96xh)
> >
> > Mike Flowers, K6MKF wrote:
> > What implications might there be for mobile Amateur Radio operation when
> autonomous vehicles are in wide-spread use?
> >
> > -- 73 de Mike Flowers, K6MKF, NCDXC - "It's about DX!"
> >
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Mobile high power

WA2SI
In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH
I run approx. 200 watts from my mobile. It's been trouble free over the last four or five years. To the best of my knowledge, no adverse effects on other vehicles either. I do use LMR-240uf throughout and employ numerous snap-on ferrites as well as a full toroidal RF choke between the output of the amp and the antenna. Also, all units are grounded directly to the vehicle chassis and bonded to each other. So far, so good.

Vy 73 de Bert
WA2SI

-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie T <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Mon, 06 May 2019 11:24
Subject: [Elecraft] Mobile high power

Has anyone considered the liability of running very high power mobile?
What if you're running a KW, and gave a call on 20M.  Suddenly,  the guys
brakes in the vehicle next to you locked up causing a multiple vehicle
crash?
I realize this is an extremely hypothetical and unlikely case, but these
smart vehicle computer systems can't be all THAT immune to all sorts of RFI.

I know the cruise control my 2000 Dakota would mysteriously jump 5 MPH if I
keyed up with only 25 watts on 222MHz.
It would return to it's previous setting when I un-keyed.   VERY
disconcerting eh?

73, Charlie k3ICH



This begs the question: Why KX3s with KPA500s? That is what I use in my
mobile station and it provides about 250W due to the FCC amplifier gain
requirements. I am fine with it, as that is what I have and higher power may
affect the vehicle. I have seen someone post a modification to remove an
attenuator in the amp and recalibrate the power meter, but I would assume
that Elecraft will not be allowed to do that, as the FCC Cert holder.

73,

Mark
W7MLG
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Re: Mobile high power

wayne burdick
Administrator
Right. But it's the electromagnetically underachieving cars a foot away from you, on four sides, that might suffer.

Yet another challenge in the era of technology that doesn't gracefully degrade.

Wayne



> On May 6, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Bert Craig <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I run approx. 200 watts from my mobile. It's been trouble free over the last four or five years. To the best of my knowledge, no adverse effects on other vehicles either. I do use LMR-240uf throughout and employ numerous snap-on ferrites as well as a full toroidal RF choke between the output of the amp and the antenna. Also, all units are grounded directly to the vehicle chassis and bonded to each other. So far, so good.
>
> Vy 73 de Bert
> WA2SI


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Re: Mobile high power

ve3fal
Back in 1995 during the Nordic Games here in Thunder Bay I was using my parents Ford SUV and using a 2 meter handheld and the vehicle was surging faster as I talked. When I would unkey the vehicle would go back to normal.

Sent from my iPhone
Fred VE3FAL/CIW649


> On May 6, 2019, at 12:21, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Right. But it's the electromagnetically underachieving cars a foot away from you, on four sides, that might suffer.
>
> Yet another challenge in the era of technology that doesn't gracefully degrade.
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
>> On May 6, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Bert Craig <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I run approx. 200 watts from my mobile. It's been trouble free over the last four or five years. To the best of my knowledge, no adverse effects on other vehicles either. I do use LMR-240uf throughout and employ numerous snap-on ferrites as well as a full toroidal RF choke between the output of the amp and the antenna. Also, all units are grounded directly to the vehicle chassis and bonded to each other. So far, so good.
>>
>> Vy 73 de Bert
>> WA2SI
>
>
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Re: Mobile high power

Elecraft mailing list
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
I ran mobile CW with my Begali Paddle sitting on the middle console of my 2004 Chevy HD2500 4x4 pickup.  I had a Hi-Q antenna on the rear top mounted on the side panel making use of one of the stake holes to feed coax.  Operated like that for about 10 years.  100 watts from an Icom 706 MkIIG.

No real problems with the truck although while operating on the 40-m band key down would light up half the warning display lights on the dash.  This mostly only happened on the 40-m band though a few times I had seen it on 20-m too.

My 2018 Toyota RAV4/Hybrid has a warranty statement saying “Do not operate mobile based radio transmission equipment” and that this could (not would but could) violate the warranty.  However, I got rid of the pickup truck mainly as I lost interest of mobile operating in favor of portable operating (not in the vehicle) and in my opinion, big trucks were made for mobile ops (all that steel).  My longest CW contact, half way around the world, was via mobile on that pickup truck on I-5 while traveling thru the state of Oregon.

73, phil K7PEH

> On May 6, 2019, at 9:21 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Right. But it's the electromagnetically underachieving cars a foot away from you, on four sides, that might suffer.
>
> Yet another challenge in the era of technology that doesn't gracefully degrade.
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
>> On May 6, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Bert Craig <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I run approx. 200 watts from my mobile. It's been trouble free over the last four or five years. To the best of my knowledge, no adverse effects on other vehicles either. I do use LMR-240uf throughout and employ numerous snap-on ferrites as well as a full toroidal RF choke between the output of the amp and the antenna. Also, all units are grounded directly to the vehicle chassis and bonded to each other. So far, so good.
>>
>> Vy 73 de Bert
>> WA2SI
>
>
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Re: Mobile high power

Steve Sergeant
My 2014 Honda Insight includes an almost identical statement in its manual.

I've only dared operate HTs with magmounts in this car, so far with
impunity.


On 5/6/19 9:45 AM, Phil Hystad via Elecraft wrote:
> My 2018 Toyota RAV4/Hybrid has a warranty statement saying “Do not operate mobile based radio transmission equipment” and that this could (not would but could) violate the warranty.
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Re: Mobile high power

Mark Goldberg
In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH
My Sprinter is rated by Mercedes to handle 100W at HF. I'm pushing that a
little, but that is another reason I am satisfied with 250W. Sprinters are
used a lot for ambulances, work trucks, and government vehicles, all with
radios, so I figure if they had RF problems, they would have to fix them. I
have a carefully planned installation with good grounding and ferrites on
the cables. I do notice a lot of noise from other vehicles, way more than
is coming from mine.

I've done a lot of RF compatibility work, both conducted and radiated RF
emissions and RF susceptibility. I see minimal RF emissions and no RF
susceptibility issues with my vehicle, but it is designed with RF in mind.
It is full of digital busses. Most vehicles are not designed for RF
compatibility.

73,

Mark
W7MLG
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Re: Mobile high power

Wes Stewart-2
https://www.qrz.com/db/N7WS

Scroll to the bottom.


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Re: Mobile high power

wa2lbi@gmail.com
In reply to this post by Steve Sergeant
I believe all of the vehicles I've owned have had a statement in their
manuals about transmitters.  Despite that, vehicles from many
manufacturers, domestic and foreign, are used in services that use
transmitters such as police, fire, ambulance, taxi, etc.  Some services use
multiple radios in vehicles covering everything frequencies from HF through
900mHz (and above?) and varying power levels.  I have yet to see one of
those vehicles have any RF-related problems affecting vehicle electronics.

If commercial radio installation companies can install transmitters in all
of these vehicles without harm it seems to me that hams can do it using
similar installation procedures.  They are carfeul as to where power is
sourced and fused as well as to how power, control, and antenna wires are
routed in the vehicle.  None of my radio installations since 1970 have ever
caused a problem in any vehicle I owned.

Ken
WA2LBI





On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 12:51 PM Steve Sergeant <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My 2014 Honda Insight includes an almost identical statement in its manual.
>
> I've only dared operate HTs with magmounts in this car, so far with
> impunity.
>
>
> On 5/6/19 9:45 AM, Phil Hystad via Elecraft wrote:
> > My 2018 Toyota RAV4/Hybrid has a warranty statement saying “Do not
> operate mobile based radio transmission equipment” and that this could (not
> would but could) violate the warranty.
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Re: Mobile high power

Phil Kane-2
In reply to this post by k6mkf
On 5/6/2019 8:39 AM, Mike Flowers wrote:

> What implications might there be for mobile Amateur Radio operation
> when autonomous vehicles are in wide-spread use?

"I have been told" (by folks who work in the field) that the Society of
Automotive Engineers (SAE) does have RFI immunity standards for
vehicle-mounted computers.  This is a little out of my field of
regulatory compliance engineering which is more concerned with the
"transmitter" end of the equation.

Additionally, the National Society of Professional Engineers (NSPE) is
getting deeply involved in the engineering and ethical responsibility
for proper design and operation of autonomous vehicles.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

VP - General Counsel & Engineering Manager
CSI Telecommunications, Inc. - Consulting Engineers
San Francisco, CA - Beaverton, OR
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Re: Mobile high power

jeff stai-2
In reply to this post by wa2lbi@gmail.com
You see lots of mobile radios out in rural areas. Volunteer fire
departments. This need won't go away soon.

Vehicle electronic sensitivity is nothing new. At least 20 years ago I
recall keying 100 watts in traffic on my morning commute and seeing the
trunk of the Lexus in front of me pop right open. Another time I pulled
into a parking structure while wrapping up a UHF QSO (short antenna) and
set off every car alarm on the floor. Good times. Hopefully improvements
have been made since then. 73 jeff wk6i


On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 10:12 AM Ken Winterling <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I believe all of the vehicles I've owned have had a statement in their
> manuals about transmitters.  Despite that, vehicles from many
> manufacturers, domestic and foreign, are used in services that use
> transmitters such as police, fire, ambulance, taxi, etc.  Some services use
> multiple radios in vehicles covering everything frequencies from HF through
> 900mHz (and above?) and varying power levels.  I have yet to see one of
> those vehicles have any RF-related problems affecting vehicle electronics.
>
> If commercial radio installation companies can install transmitters in all
> of these vehicles without harm it seems to me that hams can do it using
> similar installation procedures.  They are carfeul as to where power is
> sourced and fused as well as to how power, control, and antenna wires are
> routed in the vehicle.  None of my radio installations since 1970 have ever
> caused a problem in any vehicle I owned.
>
> Ken
> WA2LBI
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 12:51 PM Steve Sergeant <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > My 2014 Honda Insight includes an almost identical statement in its
> manual.
> >
> > I've only dared operate HTs with magmounts in this car, so far with
> > impunity.
> >
> >
> > On 5/6/19 9:45 AM, Phil Hystad via Elecraft wrote:
> > > My 2018 Toyota RAV4/Hybrid has a warranty statement saying “Do not
> > operate mobile based radio transmission equipment” and that this could
> (not
> > would but could) violate the warranty.
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html



--
Jeff Stai ~ WK6I ~ [hidden email]
RTTY op at W7RN
Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/
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Re: Mobile high power

Dave New, N8SBE
In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH
Most modern vehicles are tested for EMC in large chambers, where they
are bombarded by high-power frequencies that extend up into the
microwave range.  So, they are relatively immune to external RF fields.

On the other hand, they are frequently not designed to withstand a
powerful onboard transmitter, unless specifically designed for a
particular market, say police/fire/ambulance.

In the case of those vehicles, the assembly plant typically installs
bonding/ground straps to bond all major metal panels.  Unfortunately,
regular customers can't get those kits installed at the plant for them,
and they aren't very effective as an aftermarket kit, because the
customer would have to scrape the paint down to bare metal and access
locations that might be completely closed off after assembly to install
said straps.

The other unfortunate effect of designing for police/fire/ambulance
service, is that all those radios are now VHF/UHF and up.  No more HF
radios.  They went out with the state-wide sheriff's networks of old
that ran on 40 MHz or so.  So, that leaves the amateur radio HF operator
twisting in the wind, both for onboard interference from vehicle
electronics, and susceptibility of same.

I heard that one OEM had declared that no one used HF any more, because
they scanned the FCC database looking for amateur station assigned
frequencies (ala commercial stations which are assigned fixed channels
or groups of channels) and finding none, reached the conclusion that no
one is using those bands any more.  Thus, all frequencies below 30 MHz
are not protected, except for the AM broadcast band in the US, and MW in
the EU.

OEMs are concerned that their onboard entertainment radios
(AM/FM/Sirius/XM) and their tire pressure monitor and remote keyless
entry systems have no interference, but everything else can go to pot.

At one time, I'm aware that at least one OEM tested using an Icom IC-706
with those dummy-load like 1-inch coil resonated antennas, but I don't
know if that is any longer the case.

The ARRL TIS (Technical Information Service) maintains a database of
information on mobile installations, including official documentation
(if any) from various vehicle OEMs on suggested mobile installation
guidelines.  Some OEMs used to come to Dayton with sample mobile
installations, and answer questions but I've not seen them do this for
some number of years.

Hope this helps.

73,

-- Dave, N8SBE


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