OT: G5RV's and variants

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OT: G5RV's and variants

Ken G Kopp
It's already been pointed out that the original article
by G5RV indicated that the antenna was for 20M only.
I have the original article in my files.

I've always wondered why builders of the antenna
simply don't make an open-wire fed Zepp and stop there.
Why add a "magic" length of coax ... without any kind
of impedance matching ... to what would otherwise be
a Zepp?  Yes, the length of the coax portion of the
feeder acts as an impedance transformer ... on 20M.
On other bands, all bets are off. (:-)

The antenna requires an antenna tuner to operate on
bands other than 20M.  Many tuners contain a balun
so one has the option of either coax or balanced line
feeders.  Why not avoid the coax-to-balanced line splice
with it's almost certain mismatch losses and connect the
balanced line portion of the G5RV's feeder directly to the
tuner?  If the tuner as no internal balun, one can be made
or purchased.

I once knew a local who actually coiled the coax portion
of his G5RV's feed "system" behind his desk and then
connected it to his tuner.  The end of the balanced portion
was within inches of his tuner's balanced line connections.

The G5RV certainly qualifies as a "cult" antenna.

73!

Ken Kopp - K0PP
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Re: OT: G5RV's and variants

Barry K3NDM
From my experience, hams misunderstand antennas more than anything else they have as a part of their station. What I've been able to discover for the popularity of the G5RV is that you have an "all band antenna" in just 102'. The other issues have to do with the concept of resonance in an antenna system and the need for it.

I guess I'm just not smart enough to worry about all of the issues. My approach has been to just hang up 132' or 66' of wire fed in the center with open wire to a 4:1 balun near the house. My transition into the house is either something like LMR-240 or LMR-400 to my tuner. I can use this configuration either 80-10 or 40-10. Resonance? I really don't worry about it too much as my tuner can address the issue for me thereby making my transmitter happy. I don't worry about losses either. With low loss feeds, there is little loss, even at 10 meters, with SWRs as high as 10:1. Simplicity is key here.

The antenna that I now have up is roughly equivalent to a 40 meter Carolina Windom, modified. My thinking on this gets a little convoluted, but it works. For a new installation with the room, I would suggest the center fed dipole with low loss feeds into a good tuner. And, oh yes, get it up as high as possible.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken G Kopp" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 6:06:25 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] OT: G5RV's and variants

It's already been pointed out that the original article
by G5RV indicated that the antenna was for 20M only.
I have the original article in my files.

I've always wondered why builders of the antenna
simply don't make an open-wire fed Zepp and stop there.
Why add a "magic" length of coax ... without any kind
of impedance matching ... to what would otherwise be
a Zepp? Yes, the length of the coax portion of the
feeder acts as an impedance transformer ... on 20M.
On other bands, all bets are off. (:-)

The antenna requires an antenna tuner to operate on
bands other than 20M. Many tuners contain a balun
so one has the option of either coax or balanced line
feeders. Why not avoid the coax-to-balanced line splice
with it's almost certain mismatch losses and connect the
balanced line portion of the G5RV's feeder directly to the
tuner? If the tuner as no internal balun, one can be made
or purchased.

I once knew a local who actually coiled the coax portion
of his G5RV's feed "system" behind his desk and then
connected it to his tuner. The end of the balanced portion
was within inches of his tuner's balanced line connections.

The G5RV certainly qualifies as a "cult" antenna.

73!

Ken Kopp - K0PP
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Re: OT: G5RV's and variants

Barry K3NDM
Ron,
     I've modeled my antennas using EZNEC. What I've found is that the
horizontal pattern  is more sensitive to conductor length on dipoles.
Electrical height determines vertical angle of arrival. For NVIS work on
40 30' high is good; double that for 80. However,as you get higher than
1/4 wave the lobes start to lay down. there is an exception to this and
that is a null that is created at the horizon that can occur when you
get to certain heights between 1-2 wavelengths above ground. It's part
of an interference pattern.

     The Carolina Windoms are really interesting affairs. they are
designed to have radiation from a part of the feed near the dipole. I've
chosen to use an18' radiation length on my 66 footer. This allows a
little better radiation at the horizon on the lower frequencies with a
small impact on ten. However, at 22' things got crazy, so, 18' became
the magic number.

     Using these configurations for a fair number of years I find that
this seems to work. I do reach out and touch people when band conditions
are in good shape, and in the present iteration, the antenna is at about
40' on one end and about 30 feet on the other. This is not by design but
rather by aim and the slope of the ground. I do run both QRP, ~5 Watts
and QRO, 100 Watts.

     What I do and what I say about antennas are NOT absolute. These are
good guides that can be tailored for specific locations. The only
important thing to remember, IMHO, is antenna tuners take care of many
bad estimates and low loss feed lines mask many mistakes.

73,
Barry
K3NDM



On 2/14/2013 1:29 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> If you like to use it for chasing DX on 10 meters, you'll get better results
> with a slightly shorter radiator - something about 42 feet overall. That's
> because a longer antenna generates a big lobe pointing straight up on 10
> meters  - not very helpful for DX-ing on that band. At 42 feet the main
> lobes are still down near the horizon on 10 meters.
>
> At 42 feet, the efficiency is excellent down as low as 40 meters.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:37 PM
> To: Ken G Kopp
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: G5RV's and variants
>
> >From my experience, hams misunderstand antennas more than anything else
> they have as a part of their station. What I've been able to discover for
> the popularity of the G5RV is that you have an "all band antenna" in just
> 102'. The other issues have to do with the concept of resonance in an
> antenna system and the need for it.
>
> I guess I'm just not smart enough to worry about all of the issues. My
> approach has been to just hang up 132' or 66' of wire fed in the center with
> open wire to a 4:1 balun near the house. My transition into the house is
> either something like LMR-240 or LMR-400 to my tuner. I can use this
> configuration either 80-10 or 40-10. Resonance? I really don't worry about
> it too much as my tuner can address the issue for me thereby making my
> transmitter happy. I don't worry about losses either. With low loss feeds,
> there is little loss, even at 10 meters, with SWRs as high as 10:1.
> Simplicity is key here.
>
> The antenna that I now have up is roughly equivalent to a 40 meter Carolina
> Windom, modified. My thinking on this gets a little convoluted, but it
> works. For a new installation with the room, I would suggest the center fed
> dipole with low loss feeds into a good tuner. And, oh yes, get it up as high
> as possible.
>
> 73,
> Barry
> K3NDM
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken G Kopp" <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 6:06:25 PM
> Subject: [Elecraft] OT: G5RV's and variants
>
> It's already been pointed out that the original article by G5RV indicated
> that the antenna was for 20M only.
> I have the original article in my files.
>
> I've always wondered why builders of the antenna simply don't make an
> open-wire fed Zepp and stop there.
> Why add a "magic" length of coax ... without any kind of impedance matching
> ... to what would otherwise be a Zepp? Yes, the length of the coax portion
> of the feeder acts as an impedance transformer ... on 20M.
> On other bands, all bets are off. (:-)
>
> The antenna requires an antenna tuner to operate on bands other than 20M.
> Many tuners contain a balun so one has the option of either coax or balanced
> line feeders. Why not avoid the coax-to-balanced line splice with it's
> almost certain mismatch losses and connect the balanced line portion of the
> G5RV's feeder directly to the tuner? If the tuner as no internal balun, one
> can be made or purchased.
>
> I once knew a local who actually coiled the coax portion of his G5RV's feed
> "system" behind his desk and then connected it to his tuner. The end of the
> balanced portion was within inches of his tuner's balanced line connections.
>
>
> The G5RV certainly qualifies as a "cult" antenna.
>
> 73!
>
> Ken Kopp - K0PP
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Re: OT: G5RV's and variants

Terry Schieler-2
In reply to this post by Ken G Kopp
Interesting observation, Ken.  After seeing a upsurge of interest in G5RV antennas discussed on various ham radio reflectors (and noting that the interest seems most enthusiastic among newly-minted hams), I honestly feel that the recommendations from one new ham to the next seems to be based on trumped-up theory that the G5RV is an all-band antenna.  Almost every new ham would like an inexpensive, easy-to-build, low profile antenna for "all bands".  While we know that the G5RV *can* be made to work OK on several bands with a tuner, I feel that this new found G5RV interest is a self perpetuating rumor spreading like a bad cold among newcomers.  No one seems to want to explore the technical issues at hand.

Nice to know that someone has saved the original article.

73,

Terry, W0FM




-----Original Message-----
From: Ken G Kopp [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:06 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] OT: G5RV's and variants

It's already been pointed out that the original article by G5RV indicated that the antenna was for 20M only.
I have the original article in my files.

I've always wondered why builders of the antenna simply don't make an open-wire fed Zepp and stop there.
Why add a "magic" length of coax ... without any kind of impedance matching ... to what would otherwise be a Zepp?  Yes, the length of the coax portion of the feeder acts as an impedance transformer ... on 20M.
On other bands, all bets are off. (:-)

The antenna requires an antenna tuner to operate on bands other than 20M.  Many tuners contain a balun so one has the option of either coax or balanced line feeders.  Why not avoid the coax-to-balanced line splice with it's almost certain mismatch losses and connect the balanced line portion of the G5RV's feeder directly to the tuner?  If the tuner as no internal balun, one can be made or purchased.

I once knew a local who actually coiled the coax portion of his G5RV's feed "system" behind his desk and then connected it to his tuner.  The end of the balanced portion was within inches of his tuner's balanced line connections.

The G5RV certainly qualifies as a "cult" antenna.

73!

Ken Kopp - K0PP


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Re: OT: G5RV's and variants

Elecraft K3
There is a reason that the G5RV is a good beginner's first antenna, IMO.  It is relatively easy to install.

Of course the same size antenna performs better as a doublet fed with balanced line, but I had a lot of trouble with balanced line when I was starting out.  I didn't know enough to get usable matches.  Feedline length, routing and balun issues, while simple for me to solve now, were just too much for me to solve in the beginning.

The G5RV got me on 10, 12, 15, 17, 20, 40, 60 and 80 all at once.  Admittedly not very well on all, but I made contacts on all those bands.

Another country heard from,

73 de Eric, KG6MZS

>
> I've always wondered why builders of the antenna simply don't make an open-wire fed Zepp and stop there.

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Re: OT: G5RV's and variants

ke9uw
Yes sure...
Kurt N. Sterba who once wrote an article in World Radio about how he connected two shopping carts to the end of his coax and worked the world.
So working this or that is very unimpressive. Have you ever been he a QSO and turned the power down from a 100 watts to 1 watt and were still Q5?

Sent from my iPad
Chuck, KE9UW
(Jack for BMW motorcycles)

On Feb 14, 2013, at 2:38 PM, "Elecraft K3" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There is a reason that the G5RV is a good beginner's first antenna, IMO.  It is relatively easy to install.
>
> Of course the same size antenna performs better as a doublet fed with balanced line, but I had a lot of trouble with balanced line when I was starting out.  I didn't know enough to get usable matches.  Feedline length, routing and balun issues, while simple for me to solve now, were just too much for me to solve in the beginning.
>
> The G5RV got me on 10, 12, 15, 17, 20, 40, 60 and 80 all at once.  Admittedly not very well on all, but I made contacts on all those bands.
>
> Another country heard from,
>
> 73 de Eric, KG6MZS
>
>>
>> I've always wondered why builders of the antenna simply don't make an open-wire fed Zepp and stop there.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: OT: G5RV's and variants

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Administrator
Let's wrap up the G5RV OT discussion by the end of today in the interest
of keeping list volume under control for others.

73,

Eric
List modulator
elecraft.com


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Re: OT: G5RV's and variants

Don Wilhelm-4
In reply to this post by ke9uw
I have always been amused by the antenna adverts that say things like "I
worked 100 countries in 6 hours" or some such nonsense.
Those type ads never give radiation patterns or any other meaningful
data that can be used to compare with other antennas.

That does not mean that the ads were mis-leading, but the fact that
however many contacts were made is really meaningless.

The fact is that any antenna will radiate and can make contacts unless
it is rolled up and sitting on a shelf in the basement.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/14/2013 4:03 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
> Yes sure...
> Kurt N. Sterba who once wrote an article in World Radio about how he connected two shopping carts to the end of his coax and worked the world.
> So working this or that is very unimpressive. Have you ever been he a QSO and turned the power down from a 100 watts to 1 watt and were still Q5?
>
>

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Re: OT: G5RV's and variants

David Cutter
In reply to this post by Elecraft K3
A 66ft off-centre-fed dipole works better than the 105ft G5RV worked on
multiple bands.

Remember, however, that when Louis Varney designed his antenna (aerial in
those days, probably) we all had valve (tube) transmitters which could cope
with the wide variation in impedance.  My only matching unit was for top
band.  I didn't use a matching unit for the other bands until I had a
transistor rig.

David
G3UNA



> There is a reason that the G5RV is a good beginner's first antenna, IMO.
> It is relatively easy to install.
>
> Of course the same size antenna performs better as a doublet fed with
> balanced line, but I had a lot of trouble with balanced line when I was
> starting out.  I didn't know enough to get usable matches.  Feedline
> length, routing and balun issues, while simple for me to solve now, were
> just too much for me to solve in the beginning.
>
> The G5RV got me on 10, 12, 15, 17, 20, 40, 60 and 80 all at once.
> Admittedly not very well on all, but I made contacts on all those bands.
>
> Another country heard from,
>
> 73 de Eric, KG6MZS
>
>>
>> I've always wondered why builders of the antenna simply don't make an
>> open-wire fed Zepp and stop there.
>
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Re: OT: G5RV's and variants

daleputnam
. Have you ever been he a QSO and turned the power down from a 100 watts to 1 watt and were still Q5?
> As a matter of fact, YES! emphatically, most of the time actually... and even more of the time I start at 5 and then turn it down....on 40-30-20 especially, and on 160 and 80, I find that happening less.. but it does happen. And the antennae here are all wire.just wire, and nothing but the wiare......
Have a great day,
 
 
--...   ...--
Dale - WC7S in Wy
 
 

     
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Re: OT: G5RV's and variants

EMD
In reply to this post by Ken G Kopp
My 2 cents,

As a relatively new ham lacking any real world skills with regards to making antenna's, the G5RV has worked for me.  I am very limited in time, I am not normally home more than 10 days a month so my spare time is limited.   But I still have some time to enjoy the hobby and personally I would rather spend what time I have getting on the air.  That being said the G5RV has done what it promised, I have made contacts on 80 through 10 meters and I always am able to tune any band with less than 1.5 SWR using the K2's internal tuner.  I am only running 10 watts and have made contacts as far away as the Ukraine from my east coast QTH so it seems to getting out.  I'm sure there are better antenna's and some day I would like to have something more than the G5RV but for now it works for me.  Anyhow I don't really understand why the G5RV is so controversial.  

Respectfully submitted,

73's
Ed K3ENV
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Re: OT: G5RV's and variants

N5GE
In reply to this post by Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft

Thank you Eric.

Here is an antenna reflector link [hidden email].

73,
Tom
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
ARRL Lifetime Member
QCWA Lifetime Member

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 14:40:51 -0800, "Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>Let's wrap up the G5RV OT discussion by the end of today in the interest
>of keeping list volume under control for others.
>
>73,
>
>Eric
>List modulator
>elecraft.com
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE