(OT) Touchscreens

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(OT) Touchscreens

Elecraft mailing list
Not sure why I needed to know about an Icom 7300 and am guessing it has a touchscreen.  Leave the touchscreens
to the smart phones, IMHO.  If I had a smartphone I wouldn't have a problem with its touchscreen.  I have 3 laptops and have mice for all of them, can't stand touchpads either.  Radios should have knobs, buttons, and switches.
I feel confident that Elecraft wouldn't go there.  Let Icom and whomever else make a radio with a touch screen.
73Bill K3WJV
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(OT) Touchscreens

Guy Olinger K2AV
There will always be those that try concepts in places they have never been
used. But touchscreens have been around for a long time and a lot is known
about them. The all time great defining application for them is in
restaurants for wait staff to enter your food selection.

Repetitive operations using touchscreens require physical use research
which includes designing a mounting scheme that does not produce
physical strain under normal operation.

Normal accuracy of touch point taps has to be accommodated in screen apps.
Large tap points that appear and vanish with an appropriate logic produce
the great workplace improvements. E.g. the wait staff screens.

The stuff behind successful touchscreen apps is mind boggling, often
involving years even now decades of incremental research and program
changes. This touchscreen editor I'm using right now on my smartphone is
one such.

Any one of the list of must-do's ignored and the app is likely doomed.

Touchscreen radio? Not wishing anyone bad luck but they've bitten off quite
a piece of work. Radio ops are very repetitive in contests.

You'll never sell me a pure touch radio for contesting. Maybe a talky with
the form factor of my iPhone 6+ with a Bluetooth linked manual control and
separate Bluetooth linked amp/transmitter.

The obvious (to me anyway) touch interface is to use a smart phone app that
can also run on a tablet. Most people have already bought it and will
replace it when it breaks for dozens of unrelated needs. Don't have to
embed that cost and development into the radio. Let me use my house wifi or
Bluetooth to link to my K3. The K3 change is to provide the interface. An
internal board that listens to wifi and Bluetooth. All single chip stuff
these days.

Will be interesting to see what survives of touchscreen radio when the
latest and greatest crowd has lost interest and moved on.

73, Guy K2AV

On Friday, September 4, 2015, Bill Stravinsky via Elecraft <
[hidden email]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[hidden email]');>> wrote:

> Not sure why I needed to know about an Icom 7300 and am guessing it has a
> touchscreen.  Leave the touchscreens
> to the smart phones, IMHO.  If I had a smartphone I wouldn't have a
> problem with its touchscreen.  I have 3 laptops and have mice for all of
> them, can't stand touchpads either.  Radios should have knobs, buttons, and
> switches.
> I feel confident that Elecraft wouldn't go there.  Let Icom and whomever
> else make a radio with a touch screen.
> 73Bill K3WJV
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]



--
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Re: (OT) Touchscreens

Elecraft mailing list
Guy,

A very thoughtful perspective.  It is indeed a very challenging user
interface to design.  I'm sure that there will be dozens of solutions
that work on iOS and Android.  Building Bluetooth into a radio and
allowing full control through it would be the gateway that needs opening.

I favor a touch enabled flat panel connected directly into the radio's
microprocessor.  Everything I've done so far shows that the latency
through the serial port is a usability inhibitor.  It's never going to
feel natural until it is updating visual objects within a few
milliseconds.  What I'm envisioning is something like 20 to 30 objects
that are completely customizable for size, color, function and
location.  The user could develop a particular layout and save it.  Each
band and mode can be a different layout.

And then there is the interactive voice interface with commands like "go
to fourteen zero seven zero mode PSK", "send CQ", "answer K0DXV" or
"load contest configuration three".  Might be handy to be able to just
tell you radio what to do and watch the interface change to accommodate you.

I expect that 10 years from now I'll walk into the kitchen in the
morning and say "Mr. Coffee - Make a large regular coffee".  My coffee
maker will say "Right away" and the beans will start grinding.  I'll
then take my coffee into the shack and say "K5 on" and a marvelous radio
will come to life...

73, Doug -- K0DXV

The real key is going to be the degree of customization available.

On 9/4/2015 3:25 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> There will always be those that try concepts in places they have never been
> used. But touchscreens have been around for a long time and a lot is known
> about them. The all time great defining application for them is in
> restaurants for wait staff to enter your food selection.
>
> Repetitive operations using touchscreens require physical use research
> which includes designing a mounting scheme that does not produce
> physical strain under normal operation.
>
> Normal accuracy of touch point taps has to be accommodated in screen apps.
> Large tap points that appear and vanish with an appropriate logic produce
> the great workplace improvements. E.g. the wait staff screens.
>
> The stuff behind successful touchscreen apps is mind boggling, often
> involving years even now decades of incremental research and program
> changes. This touchscreen editor I'm using right now on my smartphone is
> one such.
>
> Any one of the list of must-do's ignored and the app is likely doomed.
>
> Touchscreen radio? Not wishing anyone bad luck but they've bitten off quite
> a piece of work. Radio ops are very repetitive in contests.
>
> You'll never sell me a pure touch radio for contesting. Maybe a talky with
> the form factor of my iPhone 6+ with a Bluetooth linked manual control and
> separate Bluetooth linked amp/transmitter.
>
> The obvious (to me anyway) touch interface is to use a smart phone app that
> can also run on a tablet. Most people have already bought it and will
> replace it when it breaks for dozens of unrelated needs. Don't have to
> embed that cost and development into the radio. Let me use my house wifi or
> Bluetooth to link to my K3. The K3 change is to provide the interface. An
> internal board that listens to wifi and Bluetooth. All single chip stuff
> these days.
>
> Will be interesting to see what survives of touchscreen radio when the
> latest and greatest crowd has lost interest and moved on.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
> On Friday, September 4, 2015, Bill Stravinsky via Elecraft <
> [hidden email]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[hidden email]');>> wrote:
>
>> Not sure why I needed to know about an Icom 7300 and am guessing it has a
>> touchscreen.  Leave the touchscreens
>> to the smart phones, IMHO.  If I had a smartphone I wouldn't have a
>> problem with its touchscreen.  I have 3 laptops and have mice for all of
>> them, can't stand touchpads either.  Radios should have knobs, buttons, and
>> switches.
>> I feel confident that Elecraft wouldn't go there.  Let Icom and whomever
>> else make a radio with a touch screen.
>> 73Bill K3WJV
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>

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Re: (OT) Touchscreens

Arie Kleingeld PA3A-2
In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV
Touch screen on a transceiver:

- a vertical screen is not so easy to tap
- a touchscreen probably drives down cost

Arie PA3A
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Re: (OT) Touchscreens

alorona
Oh! There's the P7... calling CQ... and no one is coming back to him!! I'll be the first to work him... I can't believe this... Let me just use my cool touchscreen... I move his signal with my index finger into the passband... and then throw my call out... wait... what the... Oh no, the itty-bitty tip of my pinky accidentally touched the macro button to switch to the beam on 2 meters, shut off the antenna tuner, and reduce power to one watt... oh no, OH NOOOOO!!!
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Re: (OT) Touchscreens

Gary Gregory-2
Al,

When I can stop laughing I will surely need a glass of water.

So well put.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: "Al Lorona" <[hidden email]>
Sent: ‎8/‎09/‎2015 7:42 AM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] (OT) Touchscreens

Oh! There's the P7... calling CQ... and no one is coming back to him!! I'll be the first to work him... I can't believe this... Let me just use my cool touchscreen... I move his signal with my index finger into the passband... and then throw my call out... wait... what the... Oh no, the itty-bitty tip of my pinky accidentally touched the macro button to switch to the beam on 2 meters, shut off the antenna tuner, and reduce power to one watt... oh no, OH NOOOOO!!!
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Re: (OT) Touchscreens

W1KSZ
In reply to this post by alorona
P7 ??? Would have more of an impact if it was the P5.
At least to some folks.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Al
Lorona
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 2:41 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] (OT) Touchscreens

Oh! There's the P7... calling CQ... and no one is coming back to him!! I'll
be the first to work him... I can't believe this... Let me just use my cool
touchscreen... I move his signal with my index finger into the passband...
and then throw my call out... wait... what the... Oh no, the itty-bitty tip
of my pinky accidentally touched the macro button to switch to the beam on 2
meters, shut off the antenna tuner, and reduce power to one watt... oh no,
OH NOOOOO!!!
______________________________________________________________
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: (OT) Touchscreens

k6dgw
The P5 would likely be Romeo ...

Seriously, touchscreens vary greatly, and a great deal seems to depend
on the underlying software controlling and sensing it.  ATM's are almost
completely foolproof.  They tend to have a small number of large touch
areas on a screen.  My Kindle Fire HD is OK, it's big enough that the
"keyboard" has big enough touch areas for one with arthritic fumble
fingers like me, however it's spell "correct" will make you look like
you just arrived from another sector of the galaxy.  My Samsung Galaxy 5
has a smaller keyboard of course, but surprisingly, I can text at a
reasonable rate with my two largest digits and not make a lot of
misteaks.  Most will be corrected properly.

Daughter bought a new laptop with Win 8.  Wow!  Many years ago, an
earnest 2Lt described LAPES [it Googles fine] which we were going to use
to get our gear out of the C-130 on missions.  When he finished, one of
my troopers put up his hand and when called on asked, "Just how drunk
were the guys when they invented this."  Applicable to Microsoft and Win
8 too.

Fred K6DGW
--Northern California Contest Club
--CU in the Cal QSO Party
--3-4 Oct 2015

On 9/7/2015 3:56 PM, Richard W. Solomon wrote:
> P7 ??? Would have more of an impact if it was the P5.
> At least to some folks.
>
> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>

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Re: (OT) Touchscreens

W1KSZ
Considering the charges Romeo has been convicted of and the charges he's
Awaiting trial on, he may not see the light of day in this century.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Fred
Jensen
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 4:36 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] (OT) Touchscreens

The P5 would likely be Romeo ...

Seriously, touchscreens vary greatly, and a great deal seems to depend on
the underlying software controlling and sensing it.  ATM's are almost
completely foolproof.  They tend to have a small number of large touch areas
on a screen.  My Kindle Fire HD is OK, it's big enough that the "keyboard"
has big enough touch areas for one with arthritic fumble fingers like me,
however it's spell "correct" will make you look like you just arrived from
another sector of the galaxy.  My Samsung Galaxy 5 has a smaller keyboard of
course, but surprisingly, I can text at a reasonable rate with my two
largest digits and not make a lot of misteaks.  Most will be corrected
properly.

Daughter bought a new laptop with Win 8.  Wow!  Many years ago, an earnest
2Lt described LAPES [it Googles fine] which we were going to use to get our
gear out of the C-130 on missions.  When he finished, one of my troopers put
up his hand and when called on asked, "Just how drunk were the guys when
they invented this."  Applicable to Microsoft and Win
8 too.

Fred K6DGW
--Northern California Contest Club
--CU in the Cal QSO Party
--3-4 Oct 2015

On 9/7/2015 3:56 PM, Richard W. Solomon wrote:
> P7 ??? Would have more of an impact if it was the P5.
> At least to some folks.
>
> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>

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Re: (OT) Touchscreens

Elecraft mailing list
In reply to this post by k6dgw
Very good Fred.  Windows 8 was a disaster for Microsoft.  Pretty much
everyone involved with it left, retired or were fired. My last gig with
the USAF was designing computer-based training for various systems.  I
had to actually learn the systems in order to figure out how to train
people to use them. As a usability engineer, looking at critical AF
systems... well I wished I had that line - it would have been perfect!

Windows 8 can be fixed though.  Add an extra menu system for $5 and it
works just like 7.  Windows 10 is better.  But not better enough.  
Microsoft failed to get the complete message.  Apple is wise.  They have
a separate OS for each platform.  Windows 10 - like 8, does desktop and
tablet equally badly.  Various linux-based U/I's remain the very best
for the desktop computer. Linux Mint Cinnamon is my favorite.

Good touch screen systems move components around so what you need is
there when you need them depending on what you're doing.  Flat,
touch-enabled, color screens will be the defacto interface for a long,
long time.

Fortunately, most everything needed to make the K-Line happy runs just
fine on Windows 10.  FTDI drivers, for the most part, are bullet proof
on 10.

Sigh.  Now that I'm done testing Windoze 10, I'll put the PCs back in
the closet and plug in my Macs again.  Life will be so much easier...

73, Doug -- K0DXV

On 9/7/2015 5:36 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> The P5 would likely be Romeo ...
>
> Seriously, touchscreens vary greatly, and a great deal seems to depend
> on the underlying software controlling and sensing it. ATM's are
> almost completely foolproof.  They tend to have a small number of
> large touch areas on a screen.  My Kindle Fire HD is OK, it's big
> enough that the "keyboard" has big enough touch areas for one with
> arthritic fumble fingers like me, however it's spell "correct" will
> make you look like you just arrived from another sector of the
> galaxy.  My Samsung Galaxy 5 has a smaller keyboard of course, but
> surprisingly, I can text at a reasonable rate with my two largest
> digits and not make a lot of misteaks.  Most will be corrected properly.
>
> Daughter bought a new laptop with Win 8.  Wow!  Many years ago, an
> earnest 2Lt described LAPES [it Googles fine] which we were going to
> use to get our gear out of the C-130 on missions.  When he finished,
> one of my troopers put up his hand and when called on asked, "Just how
> drunk were the guys when they invented this." Applicable to Microsoft
> and Win 8 too.
>
> Fred K6DGW
> --Northern California Contest Club
> --CU in the Cal QSO Party
> --3-4 Oct 2015
>
> On 9/7/2015 3:56 PM, Richard W. Solomon wrote:
>> P7 ??? Would have more of an impact if it was the P5.
>> At least to some folks.
>>
>> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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Re: (OT) Touchscreens

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Administrator
Let's end the thread at this time in the interest of reducing list email,overlaod for others.

73,
Eric
Mod etc.
elecraft.com
_..._



> On Sep 7, 2015, at 8:02 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Very good Fred.  Windows 8 was a disaster for Microsoft.  Pretty much everyone involved with it left, retired or were fired. My last gig with the USAF was designing computer-based training for various systems.  I had to actually learn the systems in order to figure out how to train people to use them. As a usability engineer, looking at critical AF systems... well I wished I had that line - it would have been perfect!
>
> Windows 8 can be fixed though.  Add an extra menu system for $5 and it works just like 7.  Windows 10 is better.  But not better enough.  Microsoft failed to get the complete message.  Apple is wise.  They have a separate OS for each platform.  Windows 10 - like 8, does desktop and tablet equally badly.  Various linux-based U/I's remain the very best for the desktop computer. Linux Mint Cinnamon is my favorite.
>
> Good touch screen systems move components around so what you need is there when you need them depending on what you're doing.  Flat, touch-enabled, color screens will be the defacto interface for a long, long time.
>
> Fortunately, most everything needed to make the K-Line happy runs just fine on Windows 10.  FTDI drivers, for the most part, are bullet proof on 10.
>
> Sigh.  Now that I'm done testing Windoze 10, I'll put the PCs back in the closet and plug in my Macs again.  Life will be so much easier...
>
> 73, Doug -- K0DXV
>
>> On 9/7/2015 5:36 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>> The P5 would likely be Romeo ...
>>
>> Seriously, touchscreens vary greatly, and a great deal seems to depend on the underlying software controlling and sensing it. ATM's are almost completely foolproof.  They tend to have a small number of large touch areas on a screen.  My Kindle Fire HD is OK, it's big enough that the "keyboard" has big enough touch areas for one with arthritic fumble fingers like me, however it's spell "correct" will make you look like you just arrived from another sector of the galaxy.  My Samsung Galaxy 5 has a smaller keyboard of course, but surprisingly, I can text at a reasonable rate with my two largest digits and not make a lot of misteaks.  Most will be corrected properly.
>>
>> Daughter bought a new laptop with Win 8.  Wow!  Many years ago, an earnest 2Lt described LAPES [it Googles fine] which we were going to use to get our gear out of the C-130 on missions.  When he finished, one of my troopers put up his hand and when called on asked, "Just how drunk were the guys when they invented this." Applicable to Microsoft and Win 8 too.
>>
>> Fred K6DGW
>> --Northern California Contest Club
>> --CU in the Cal QSO Party
>> --3-4 Oct 2015
>>
>>> On 9/7/2015 3:56 PM, Richard W. Solomon wrote:
>>> P7 ??? Would have more of an impact if it was the P5.
>>> At least to some folks.
>>>
>>> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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