[OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

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[OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

Elecraft mailing list
I just bought 20' of what was supposed to be 10GA zip wire from that auction site. It is clearly marked as "Audiopipe 10 Gauge speaker cable". The conductor is actually 12GA at best. Is this becoming common practice or is wire going the way of 2X4 lumber? Suggestions for a reputable source of true 10GA PTFE zip wire for K3 power?
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Re: [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

Don Wilhelm
I would suggest buying from The RF Connection
http://www.therfc.com/zipcord.htm or Powerwerx
https://powerwerx.com/red-black-bonded-zip-cord.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/11/2016 11:21 AM, rick jones via Elecraft wrote:
> I just bought 20' of what was supposed to be 10GA zip wire from that auction site. It is clearly marked as "Audiopipe 10 Gauge speaker cable". The conductor is actually 12GA at best. Is this becoming common practice or is wire going the way of 2X4 lumber? Suggestions for a reputable source of true 10GA PTFE zip wire for K3 power?
>

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Re: [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

w5sum
Is 10 gauge necessary?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 11, 2016, at 10:41 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I would suggest buying from The RF Connection http://www.therfc.com/zipcord.htm or Powerwerx https://powerwerx.com/red-black-bonded-zip-cord.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>> On 8/11/2016 11:21 AM, rick jones via Elecraft wrote:
>> I just bought 20' of what was supposed to be 10GA zip wire from that auction site. It is clearly marked as "Audiopipe 10 Gauge speaker cable". The conductor is actually 12GA at best. Is this becoming common practice or is wire going the way of 2X4 lumber? Suggestions for a reputable source of true 10GA PTFE zip wire for K3 power?
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Re: [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

Don Wilhelm
Ronnie,

It "all depends"

I use 12 gauge myself, but the runs are less than 6 feet.
For longer power cables, I would use 10 gauge or larger.

#10 is .000999 ohms per foot
#12 is .001588 ohms per foot.

For 12 feet of conductor (yes, you have to count the resistance both
directions) - at 18 amps current draw, the #10 will produce a .22 volt
drop while #12 will produce a .34 volt drop.
So take your pick, either increase your power supply voltage to
compensate or go with the larger wire.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/11/2016 11:43 AM, Ronnie Hull wrote:
> Is 10 gauge necessary?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>

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Re: [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

Joe DeVincentis
In reply to this post by w5sum
Depends on the run length and the voltage drop you are willing to tolerate.

10’ of 10 gauge for 13.8 VDC @ 20A has a drop to 13.4V vs a drop to 13.16 for 12 gauge.

Source: http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html

Joe
KO8V

> On Aug 11, 2016, at 10:43 AM, Ronnie Hull <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Is 10 gauge necessary?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 10:41 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I would suggest buying from The RF Connection http://www.therfc.com/zipcord.htm or Powerwerx https://powerwerx.com/red-black-bonded-zip-cord.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>>> On 8/11/2016 11:21 AM, rick jones via Elecraft wrote:
>>> I just bought 20' of what was supposed to be 10GA zip wire from that auction site. It is clearly marked as "Audiopipe 10 Gauge speaker cable". The conductor is actually 12GA at best. Is this becoming common practice or is wire going the way of 2X4 lumber? Suggestions for a reputable source of true 10GA PTFE zip wire for K3 power?
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Re: [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

Charlie T, K3ICH
In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
Bad analogy.  The 2 X 4 inch measurement of a piece of construction lumber
is before planning, or rough cut lumber.  The finished dimension is more
like 3½ X 1½ which hasn't changed.
 However, you might be right on the speaker wire.  Maybe some "secret" wire
formula that is equivalent to 10 gauge. (HI)

Sorta like the ½ gallon of Ice cream that went from 1¾ to 1½ quarts.
Although they don't still CALL it a half gallon.  It just looks the same.

If you paid though pay-pal, just complain.  They side with the buyer 99% of
the time, so you'll more than likely, get you money back.

73, Charlie k3ICH





-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of rick
jones via Elecraft
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 11:21 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

I just bought 20' of what was supposed to be 10GA zip wire from that auction
site. It is clearly marked as "Audiopipe 10 Gauge speaker cable". The
conductor is actually 12GA at best. Is this becoming common practice or is
wire going the way of 2X4 lumber? Suggestions for a reputable source of true
10GA PTFE zip wire for K3 power?
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Re: [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

Dick Dickinson
In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
“Is this becoming common practice or is

wire going the way of 2X4 lumber?”

 

“Bad analogy.  The 2 X 4 inch measurement of a piece of construction lumber

is before planning, or rough cut lumber.  The finished dimension is more

like 3½ X 1½ which hasn't changed.”

 

Not so bad an analogy.  A planed 2 x 4 used to be 3 5/8” x 1 5/8”.  

 

 

73,

Dick – KA5KKT

 

 

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Re: [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

Clay Autery
In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
Well, I don't use "zip wire" for anything anymore...  But if you want a
good selection of wire at reasonable prices, and great quality...

http://wesbellwireandcable.com/index.html

I've bought by the foot and by the spool from these folks.  Tell Matt I
sent you.  :)

I suggest using 10 GA THHN/THWN wire in red and black....  then HAND
twist it and terminate it with your Powerpole on one end and the lug
terms or whatever you want on the other end.  Use heatshrink or zip-ties
to keep twists (not necessary for cables with PP on both ends...

BTW, WesBell has heatshrink too...

73,

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5Gt
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 8/11/2016 10:21 AM, rick jones via Elecraft wrote:
> I just bought 20' of what was supposed to be 10GA zip wire from that auction site. It is clearly marked as "Audiopipe 10 Gauge speaker cable". The conductor is actually 12GA at best. Is this becoming common practice or is wire going the way of 2X4 lumber? Suggestions for a reputable source of true 10GA PTFE zip wire for K3 power?
> ______________________________________________________________
>

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Re: [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

Clay Autery
In reply to this post by w5sum
How do you define "necessary".

Paraphrasing K9YC, Jim....  "Big wire is your friend".

I agree...

I typically use wire at least 2 sizes larger than "required"....  Often
the wire size is determined by how big of a wire I can FIT in the
application and how much money I can part with at the time.

For instance, on my current power project... I am running 6 AWG x 4 from
the service to the sub-panel @ 50 foot run for a 60 Amp separately
derived service where there'll never be more than about a 20 Amp total
demand...

From the sub-panel to the receptacles about 3-1/2 feet below, I am using
10 AWG....  only because that's the largest wire the receptacle
terminals are rated for.

From the receptacles to all equipment, minimum 10 AWG...

Bigger and shorter the wire, the better...

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 8/11/2016 10:43 AM, Ronnie Hull wrote:
> Is 10 gauge necessary?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
Over the years, I've bought some of the red/black zip cord at hamfests.
While I have not measured any of it with a micrometer, my strong
impression has been that it IS smaller than labeled.

More to the point -- zip cord is TERRIBLE cable for loudspeaker wiring
because it has very poor RF rejection. It has been well known for more
than 120 years that twisted pair has quite powerful  rejection of all
interference, from a few Hz to high RF. Think about it -- for the first
100+ years of telephony, telephone wiring ran EVERYWHERE on the same
poles as 60 Hz power lines with no interference. Their ONLY measure to
reject 60 Hz was to have the telephone lines cross over each other every
few poles along the run. This was enough of a twist when the only
interference was 60 Hz. Even today, there are huge quantities of
telephone, intercom, and even audio wiring carried on unshielded twisted
pair. CAT5/6 carry high data rate signals on opposing pairs without
interference. At tutorial lectures, I've demonstrated ordinary CAT5
providing RF rejection as good as shielded twisted pair into the high
VHF range. And I've solved more than a dozen instances of RFI to home
entertainment systems simply by replacing glorified zip cord with
twisted pairs of #12 POC (plain, ordinary copper).

For the same reason, twisted pair is superior for power wiring in our
stations.

As to resistance -- I use the shortest practical runs of #10 between my
power source (a big 100Ah LiFePO4 battery) and my two K3s. I do this
because like most 12V radios, it's cleaner (lower levels of key clicks)
at higher supply voltages.

73, Jim K9YC

On Thu,8/11/2016 8:21 AM, rick jones via Elecraft wrote:
> I just bought 20' of what was supposed to be 10GA zip wire from that auction site. It is clearly marked as "Audiopipe 10 Gauge speaker cable". The conductor is actually 12GA at best. Is this becoming common practice or is wire going the way of 2X4 lumber? Suggestions for a reputable source of true 10GA PTFE zip wire for K3 power?


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Real 2" x 4" Lumber

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH
Indeed the finished dimension of lumber HAS changed. Renovating the wood
frame home I owned in Chicago, built around the turn of the century,
after the Great Chicago Fire, I found REAL 2" x 4" and 2" x 6" lumber.

I also removed at least 100 ft of gas pipe used for lighting. When first
wired for electricity, wiring was run through those pipes and light
fixtures replaced the gas lights. Obviously, they were first
disconnected from the gas line, which was still used for heat. :)

Another thing that's changed is the sweet corn that we can buy in the
market -- it's now much sweeter with little real corn taste. As long as
I've been eating it, corn was always hybridized for taste, but it always
tasted like corn. What we get now is hybridized and genetically
engineered stuff that resists the chemicals used to kill weeds.  It  
looks like corn, but tastes like a sugar bowl.  Small farmers used to
harvest their own seeds to plant next year's crop, and to grow corn that
tasted the way they and their customers wanted. But when that chemical
resistant stuff was invented something like 10 years ago, Monsanto, the
big seed company that invented it, sued those farmers, claiming that
some of their patented stuff had cross-fertilized those corn plants, and
within a few years, that phony corn is all we can buy. I used to buy a
half dozen ears, steam them, and eat them for lunch. I haven't been able
to do that for years.

73, Jim K9YC

  On Thu,8/11/2016 9:17 AM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
> Bad analogy.  The 2 X 4 inch measurement of a piece of construction lumber
> is before planning, or rough cut lumber.  The finished dimension is more
> like 3½ X 1½ which hasn't changed.


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Re: [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

Guy Olinger K2AV
In reply to this post by Clay Autery
If the feed to the sub-panel has 60 amp breakers in the main panel, then #6
AWG feed to the sub-panel is required by the NEC code. That you estimate at
this time you do not ever use more than 20 amps out of the sub-panel has no
bearing on the ampacity requirement for the sub-panel. A subsequent
occupant of your property may chose to expand use of the sub-panel to the
degree implied by the main panel breakers for the sub-.panel. The code is
intended to protect future occupants as well.

73, Guy K2AV

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:38 PM, Clay Autery <[hidden email]> wrote:

> How do you define "necessary".
>
> Paraphrasing K9YC, Jim....  "Big wire is your friend".
>
> I agree...
>
> I typically use wire at least 2 sizes larger than "required"....  Often
> the wire size is determined by how big of a wire I can FIT in the
> application and how much money I can part with at the time.
>
> For instance, on my current power project... I am running 6 AWG x 4 from
> the service to the sub-panel @ 50 foot run for a 60 Amp separately
> derived service where there'll never be more than about a 20 Amp total
> demand...
>
> From the sub-panel to the receptacles about 3-1/2 feet below, I am using
> 10 AWG....  only because that's the largest wire the receptacle
> terminals are rated for.
>
> From the receptacles to all equipment, minimum 10 AWG...
>
> Bigger and shorter the wire, the better...
>
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389
>
> On 8/11/2016 10:43 AM, Ronnie Hull wrote:
> > Is 10 gauge necessary?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Re: [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

Clay Autery
Guy, I am intimately aware of the code...   I started out with a 40 Amp
breaker at the service to the sub...  I changed it to a 60Amp to "match"
the 6AWG run...  I would never install anything that was not up to code
or use non-UL materials...  And I always have my work double-checked by
a respected master electrician.

My POINT was that for the max 20 Amp demand that will likely ever be
seen from that sub, the 6AWG is much bigger than required...
specifically to reduce voltage drops...

The twisted pairs and conduit are not "required" by code either, but are
there to help keep the power "quiet".

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 8/11/2016 12:30 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> If the feed to the sub-panel has 60 amp breakers in the main panel,
> then #6 AWG feed to the sub-panel is required by the NEC code. That
> you estimate at this time you do not ever use more than 20 amps out of
> the sub-panel has no bearing on the ampacity requirement for the
> sub-panel. A subsequent occupant of your property may chose to expand
> use of the sub-panel to the degree implied by the main panel breakers
> for the sub-.panel. The code is intended to protect future occupants
> as well.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:38 PM, Clay Autery <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     How do you define "necessary".
>
>     Paraphrasing K9YC, Jim....  "Big wire is your friend".
>
>     I agree...
>
>     I typically use wire at least 2 sizes larger than "required"....
>     Often
>     the wire size is determined by how big of a wire I can FIT in the
>     application and how much money I can part with at the time.
>
>     For instance, on my current power project... I am running 6 AWG x
>     4 from
>     the service to the sub-panel @ 50 foot run for a 60 Amp separately
>     derived service where there'll never be more than about a 20 Amp total
>     demand...
>
>     From the sub-panel to the receptacles about 3-1/2 feet below, I am
>     using
>     10 AWG....  only because that's the largest wire the receptacle
>     terminals are rated for.
>
>     From the receptacles to all equipment, minimum 10 AWG...
>
>     Bigger and shorter the wire, the better...
>
>     ______________________
>     Clay Autery, KY5G
>     MONTAC Enterprises
>     (318) 518-1389
>
>     On 8/11/2016 10:43 AM, Ronnie Hull wrote:
>     > Is 10 gauge necessary?
>     >
>     > Sent from my iPhone
>     ______________________________________________________________
>     Elecraft mailing list
>     Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Re: [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

k6dgw
In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
No Rick, they have developed a new plating process [Cu on Cu] that makes
12 ga wire perform like 10 ga wire.  Now, if you wanted to use it for
speaker wire, you would need yet another plating to prevent audio
distortion and achieve the highest fidelity.  That makes it more expensive.

At least that's what I saw on the Internet and you're not allowed to put
anything on the Internet that isn't true ...

73,

Fred K6DGW
Sparks NV
Washoe County DM09dn

On 8/11/2016 8:21 AM, rick jones via Elecraft wrote:
> I just bought 20' of what was supposed to be 10GA zip wire from that
> auction site. It is clearly marked as "Audiopipe 10 Gauge speaker
> cable". The conductor is actually 12GA at best. Is this becoming
> common practice or is wire going the way of 2X4 lumber?
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Re: [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

Kevin - K4VD
In reply to this post by Clay Autery
The added cost of a 3x over-build seems like it would be awfully high. Is
this good engineering practice (seriously, I don't know)?

Kevin K4VD

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:38 PM, Clay Autery <[hidden email]> wrote:

> How do you define "necessary".
>
> Paraphrasing K9YC, Jim....  "Big wire is your friend".
>
> I agree...
>
> I typically use wire at least 2 sizes larger than "required"....  Often
> the wire size is determined by how big of a wire I can FIT in the
> application and how much money I can part with at the time.
>
> For instance, on my current power project... I am running 6 AWG x 4 from
> the service to the sub-panel @ 50 foot run for a 60 Amp separately
> derived service where there'll never be more than about a 20 Amp total
> demand...
>
> From the sub-panel to the receptacles about 3-1/2 feet below, I am using
> 10 AWG....  only because that's the largest wire the receptacle
> terminals are rated for.
>
> From the receptacles to all equipment, minimum 10 AWG...
>
> Bigger and shorter the wire, the better...
>
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389
>
> On 8/11/2016 10:43 AM, Ronnie Hull wrote:
> > Is 10 gauge necessary?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Re: [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

Eric J
In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH
Same with shoe sizes. I've gone from a Size 9 to a Size 11 and nothing I
have related to shoe size got any bigger.

Eric KE6US


On 8/11/2016 9:17 AM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:

> Bad analogy.  The 2 X 4 inch measurement of a piece of construction lumber
> is before planning, or rough cut lumber.  The finished dimension is more
> like 3½ X 1½ which hasn't changed.
>   However, you might be right on the speaker wire.  Maybe some "secret" wire
> formula that is equivalent to 10 gauge. (HI)
>
> Sorta like the ½ gallon of Ice cream that went from 1¾ to 1½ quarts.
> Although they don't still CALL it a half gallon.  It just looks the same.
>
> If you paid though pay-pal, just complain.  They side with the buyer 99% of
> the time, so you'll more than likely, get you money back.
>
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of rick
> jones via Elecraft
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 11:21 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] [OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?
>
> I just bought 20' of what was supposed to be 10GA zip wire from that auction
> site. It is clearly marked as "Audiopipe 10 Gauge speaker cable". The
> conductor is actually 12GA at best. Is this becoming common practice or is
> wire going the way of 2X4 lumber? Suggestions for a reputable source of true
> 10GA PTFE zip wire for K3 power?
> ______________________________________________________________
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> delivered to [hidden email]
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>

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Re: [OT] NEC wire size requirements (was: Zip Wire Misrepresentation?)

Lewis Phelps
In reply to this post by Kevin - K4VD
I’ve changed the subject line because this discussion has strayed from the original question.

At retail rates (e.g. price per foot from lower.com) #6 wire is 89 cents per foot, and #12 wire is 8.2 cents per foot;  assuming Clay’s 50 foot run and 3 wires for a 110 VAC circuit with ground, per NEC, the added cost for wire would be $121.20.  

Is it “good engineering practice?”  It seems to be to be OK from an electrical standpoint, albeit unnecessary, and unnecessary from a cost standpoint, albeit not harmful.

 I can certainly understand “over-specifying” wire size in a 12 volt circuit, and using larger wire size than is required simply from considering ampacity,  because the voltage drop is a much larger change proportionally, but I really don’t see the benefit from the expense and added installation difficulty of using larger-than-required wire for a 120VAC supply circuit.

according to the online calculator at http://www.southwire.com/support/voltage-drop-calculator.htm, which takes into account both resistance and reactance of the wire:

— for a 50 foot run of cable of #6 wire, at 20 amps and 120 volts AC single phase,  the total voltage drop will be 0.884 volt, or 0.74%, for a net voltage at the end of the circuit of 119.1 volts (rounding)
— for the same run with #12 wire, the total voltage drop will be 3.472 volts, or 2.90 percent, for a net voltage at the end of the circuit of 116.5 volts (rounding).

The 3.47 volt drop would be intolerable in a 12 volt circuit providing power directly to amateur radio equipment, but seems to me irrelevant if feeding a competently-designed power supply that reduces the 120 volts AC  supply to some lower voltage of DC supply. Any ham radio power supply that is specified to operate on 120 VAC should be able to operate without difficulty from a 116.5 volts supply.

So, why go to the extra expense of #6 wire? While it seems to me to be to be harmless to “over-spec” the wire size, it also seems expensive and not necessary either per requirements of Section of 310-15 of the NEC or from a “good operating practices” perspective.

Lew N6LEW



> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:12 AM, Kevin - K4VD <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The added cost of a 3x over-build seems like it would be awfully high. Is
> this good engineering practice (seriously, I don't know)?
>
> Kevin K4VD
>
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:38 PM, Clay Autery <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>> How do you define "necessary".
>>
>> Paraphrasing K9YC, Jim....  "Big wire is your friend".
>>
>> I agree...
>>
>> I typically use wire at least 2 sizes larger than "required"....  Often
>> the wire size is determined by how big of a wire I can FIT in the
>> application and how much money I can part with at the time.
>>
>> For instance, on my current power project... I am running 6 AWG x 4 from
>> the service to the sub-panel @ 50 foot run for a 60 Amp separately
>> derived service where there'll never be more than about a 20 Amp total
>> demand...
>>
>> From the sub-panel to the receptacles about 3-1/2 feet below, I am using
>> 10 AWG....  only because that's the largest wire the receptacle
>> terminals are rated for.
>>
>> From the receptacles to all equipment, minimum 10 AWG...
>>
>> Bigger and shorter the wire, the better...
>>
>> ______________________
>> Clay Autery, KY5G
>> MONTAC Enterprises
>> (318) 518-1389
>>
>> On 8/11/2016 10:43 AM, Ronnie Hull wrote:
>>> Is 10 gauge necessary?
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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> ______________________________________________________________
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Lew Phelps N6LEW
Pasadena, CA DM04wd
Elecraft K3-10 / KXV144 / XV432
Yaesu FT-7800
[hidden email]
www.n6lew.us

Generalized Law of Entropy: Sooner or later, everything that has been put together will fall apart.





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Re: [OT] NEC wire size requirements (was: Zip Wire Misrepresentation?)

Lewis Phelps
Sorry, auto spell correct got in the way. That should have read “lowes.com”

lew

> On Aug 11, 2016, at 12:03 PM, Lewis Phelps <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I’ve changed the subject line because this discussion has strayed from the original question.
>
> At retail rates (e.g. price per foot from lower.com <http://lower.com/>) #6 wire is 89 cents per foot, and #12 wire is 8.2 cents per foot;  assuming Clay’s 50 foot run and 3 wires for a 110 VAC circuit with ground, per NEC, the added cost for wire would be $121.20.  
>
> Is it “good engineering practice?”  It seems to be to be OK from an electrical standpoint, albeit unnecessary, and unnecessary from a cost standpoint, albeit not harmful.
>
>  I can certainly understand “over-specifying” wire size in a 12 volt circuit, and using larger wire size than is required simply from considering ampacity,  because the voltage drop is a much larger change proportionally, but I really don’t see the benefit from the expense and added installation difficulty of using larger-than-required wire for a 120VAC supply circuit.
>
> according to the online calculator at http://www.southwire.com/support/voltage-drop-calculator.htm <http://www.southwire.com/support/voltage-drop-calculator.htm>, which takes into account both resistance and reactance of the wire:
>
> — for a 50 foot run of cable of #6 wire, at 20 amps and 120 volts AC single phase,  the total voltage drop will be 0.884 volt, or 0.74%, for a net voltage at the end of the circuit of 119.1 volts (rounding)
> — for the same run with #12 wire, the total voltage drop will be 3.472 volts, or 2.90 percent, for a net voltage at the end of the circuit of 116.5 volts (rounding).
>
> The 3.47 volt drop would be intolerable in a 12 volt circuit providing power directly to amateur radio equipment, but seems to me irrelevant if feeding a competently-designed power supply that reduces the 120 volts AC  supply to some lower voltage of DC supply. Any ham radio power supply that is specified to operate on 120 VAC should be able to operate without difficulty from a 116.5 volts supply.
>
> So, why go to the extra expense of #6 wire? While it seems to me to be to be harmless to “over-spec” the wire size, it also seems expensive and not necessary either per requirements of Section of 310-15 of the NEC or from a “good operating practices” perspective.
>
> Lew N6LEW
>
>
>
>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:12 AM, Kevin - K4VD <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>> The added cost of a 3x over-build seems like it would be awfully high. Is
>> this good engineering practice (seriously, I don't know)?
>>
>> Kevin K4VD
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:38 PM, Clay Autery <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>> How do you define "necessary".
>>>
>>> Paraphrasing K9YC, Jim....  "Big wire is your friend".
>>>
>>> I agree...
>>>
>>> I typically use wire at least 2 sizes larger than "required"....  Often
>>> the wire size is determined by how big of a wire I can FIT in the
>>> application and how much money I can part with at the time.
>>>
>>> For instance, on my current power project... I am running 6 AWG x 4 from
>>> the service to the sub-panel @ 50 foot run for a 60 Amp separately
>>> derived service where there'll never be more than about a 20 Amp total
>>> demand...
>>>
>>> From the sub-panel to the receptacles about 3-1/2 feet below, I am using
>>> 10 AWG....  only because that's the largest wire the receptacle
>>> terminals are rated for.
>>>
>>> From the receptacles to all equipment, minimum 10 AWG...
>>>
>>> Bigger and shorter the wire, the better...
>>>
>>> ______________________
>>> Clay Autery, KY5G
>>> MONTAC Enterprises
>>> (318) 518-1389
>>>
>>> On 8/11/2016 10:43 AM, Ronnie Hull wrote:
>>>> Is 10 gauge necessary?
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/>
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/>
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
>> Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> Lew Phelps N6LEW
> Pasadena, CA DM04wd
> Elecraft K3-10 / KXV144 / XV432
> Yaesu FT-7800
> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> www.n6lew.us <http://www.n6lew.us/>
>
> Generalized Law of Entropy: Sooner or later, everything that has been put together will fall apart.
>
>
>
>
>

Lew Phelps N6LEW
Pasadena, CA DM04wd
Elecraft K3-10 / KXV144 / XV432
Yaesu FT-7800
[hidden email]
www.n6lew.us

Generalized Law of Entropy: Sooner or later, everything that has been put together will fall apart.





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Re: [OT] NEC wire size requirements

Lewis Phelps
In reply to this post by Lewis Phelps
Depends on the conduit size. Half inch conduit can only carry two #6 wires per NEC, but 3/4” conduit is OK for four #6 wires.

But we weren’t talking here about pulling wire out of an existing conduit, I don’t think.. This was described as a new installation by a code-savvy op, who no doubt is using properly sized conduit..

Lew N6LEW

> On Aug 11, 2016, at 12:39 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 8/11/2016 12:03 PM, Lewis Phelps wrote:
>> So, why go to the extra expense of #6 wire? While it seems to me to be to be harmless to “over-spec” the wire size, it also seems expensive and not necessary either per requirements of Section of 310-15 of the NEC or from a “good operating practices” perspective.
> IIRC, there is discussion in the NEC about the total cross section of wires in conduit.  Pulling #10 from existing conduit and replacing it with #6 could in fact be a code violation?
>
> -- Lynn

Lew Phelps N6LEW
Pasadena, CA DM04wd
Elecraft K3-10 / KXV144 / XV432
Yaesu FT-7800
[hidden email]
www.n6lew.us

Generalized Law of Entropy: Sooner or later, everything that has been put together will fall apart.





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Re: [OT] NEC wire size requirements (was: Zip Wire Misrepresentation?)

Guy Olinger K2AV
In reply to this post by Lewis Phelps
It really depends on physical environment particulars, and what it is you
are sizing your DC currents for.

If you are talking about 4 feet, that's one thing. But if it's an RV and
you are wiring up a 13.8 V DC supply circuit run from house batteries,
which are where they are, to the only place in the RV you can stuff a ham
shack, and it's 46.5 feet via the only possible wiring routing, then
voltage drop is a big issue if you want to run a K3 plus whatever from
there. It's even more interesting if what you are planning for is TWO K3's
plus two laptops and whatever, and that's going to be two regular FD
operating positions in a lazy and air-conditioned comfortable RV with
facilities, and a cold fridge at the ready.

I'll run the #4 direct from the battery terminals, and fuse it at 50 amps.
That will allow the big T105 batteries to feed peak current to the shack,
without having to have up-size the charger-converter (which needs to be
sized to the batteries' bulk charge rate, not the load). Let the
charger-converter and all that house DC wiring just worry about keeping the
battery charged, just like we had gone to a site without park power, and
had to do the battery plus generator afternoons thing. Gen comes on and
charger-converter runs bulk charge current for a long period. They're made
to do that.

Also it allows us to run the air-conditioning and the house on the
generator and use the T105's for class 2B on FD. Just use the regular house
battery disconnect and the big batteries are all the transceivers ever see.

In this kind of consideration, spending the absolute least amount of money
possible is not the prime consideration, and a stiff supply voltage at the
far end would justify spending money for copper.

73, Guy.

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Lewis Phelps <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I’ve changed the subject line because this discussion has strayed from the
> original question.
>
> At retail rates (e.g. price per foot from lower.com) #6 wire is 89 cents
> per foot, and #12 wire is 8.2 cents per foot;  assuming Clay’s 50 foot run
> and 3 wires for a 110 VAC circuit with ground, per NEC, the added cost for
> wire would be $121.20.
>
> Is it “good engineering practice?”  It seems to be to be OK from an
> electrical standpoint, albeit unnecessary, and unnecessary from a cost
> standpoint, albeit not harmful.
>
>  I can certainly understand “over-specifying” wire size in a 12 volt
> circuit, and using larger wire size than is required simply from
> considering ampacity,  because the voltage drop is a much larger change
> proportionally, but I really don’t see the benefit from the expense and
> added installation difficulty of using larger-than-required wire for a
> 120VAC supply circuit.
>
> according to the online calculator at http://www.southwire.com/
> support/voltage-drop-calculator.htm, which takes into account both
> resistance and reactance of the wire:
>
> — for a 50 foot run of cable of #6 wire, at 20 amps and 120 volts AC
> single phase,  the total voltage drop will be 0.884 volt, or 0.74%, for a
> net voltage at the end of the circuit of 119.1 volts (rounding)
> — for the same run with #12 wire, the total voltage drop will be 3.472
> volts, or 2.90 percent, for a net voltage at the end of the circuit of
> 116.5 volts (rounding).
>
> The 3.47 volt drop would be intolerable in a 12 volt circuit providing
> power directly to amateur radio equipment, but seems to me irrelevant if
> feeding a competently-designed power supply that reduces the 120 volts AC
> supply to some lower voltage of DC supply. Any ham radio power supply that
> is specified to operate on 120 VAC should be able to operate without
> difficulty from a 116.5 volts supply.
>
> So, why go to the extra expense of #6 wire? While it seems to me to be to
> be harmless to “over-spec” the wire size, it also seems expensive and not
> necessary either per requirements of Section of 310-15 of the NEC or from a
> “good operating practices” perspective.
>
> Lew N6LEW
>
>
>
> > On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:12 AM, Kevin - K4VD <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > The added cost of a 3x over-build seems like it would be awfully high. Is
> > this good engineering practice (seriously, I don't know)?
> >
> > Kevin K4VD
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:38 PM, Clay Autery <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> >
> >> How do you define "necessary".
> >>
> >> Paraphrasing K9YC, Jim....  "Big wire is your friend".
> >>
> >> I agree...
> >>
> >> I typically use wire at least 2 sizes larger than "required"....  Often
> >> the wire size is determined by how big of a wire I can FIT in the
> >> application and how much money I can part with at the time.
> >>
> >> For instance, on my current power project... I am running 6 AWG x 4 from
> >> the service to the sub-panel @ 50 foot run for a 60 Amp separately
> >> derived service where there'll never be more than about a 20 Amp total
> >> demand...
> >>
> >> From the sub-panel to the receptacles about 3-1/2 feet below, I am using
> >> 10 AWG....  only because that's the largest wire the receptacle
> >> terminals are rated for.
> >>
> >> From the receptacles to all equipment, minimum 10 AWG...
> >>
> >> Bigger and shorter the wire, the better...
> >>
> >> ______________________
> >> Clay Autery, KY5G
> >> MONTAC Enterprises
> >> (318) 518-1389
> >>
> >> On 8/11/2016 10:43 AM, Ronnie Hull wrote:
> >>> Is 10 gauge necessary?
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >> Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> >>
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft <
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/>
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html <
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
> > Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> Lew Phelps N6LEW
> Pasadena, CA DM04wd
> Elecraft K3-10 / KXV144 / XV432
> Yaesu FT-7800
> [hidden email]
> www.n6lew.us
>
> Generalized Law of Entropy: Sooner or later, everything that has been put
> together will fall apart.
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
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