P3 TX Mon Usefulness?

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P3 TX Mon Usefulness?

Phil Hystad-3
Now that I have the P3 TX Monitor I am wondering if this is anything more than a mere light-show for entertainment.  I am mostly CW and I find that the actual TX display of the CW to be a bit silly looking and contrived.  In fact, it looks like something fake to me and I say that not as a criticism so much as a curiosity in wondering what the display actually shows.  

I have adjusted some of the TX Mon parameters to adjust the “size” of the envelop display but I still am not sure I understand exactly what I am seeing and if this has value other than ham radio eye candy.  Maybe I need a chapter added to  the P3 writeup by Fred Cady (KE7X) describing the meaning and analysis of wave shapes.

I actually like the power (peak power indicator) and SWR display but not sure I would get rid of my LP-100A as a result.

No, I am not regretting the purchase, just wondering about the value of the display.  From my very few experiments with SSB and the TX mon, I see a more interesting display but certainly I can’t easily tell if what I see tells me anything useful to know or useful in analyzing signals from the K3.  Now, if I could hook up the P3 TX Monitor feature to my Eico 720 CW transmitter and see the wave shape of CW signals I might discover the major chirps that my 720 produces — But, a K3, it is near perfection in CW shaping (or, at least to me it is).

Just a few observations and curiosity questions from a philistine among experts.

73, phil, K7PEH

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Re: P3 TX Mon Usefulness?

Lyle Johnson
You *can* hook up your Eico 720 Tx and see its CW rise and fall times
and perhaps use that information to dig into the radio and improve it.

In SSB mode you can see the effect of the K3 Tx EQ and speech processor
as it relates to peak-to-average power.

And as you say it provides PWR and SWR indications.  With multiple
indicators (K3, P3, LP-100A, KAT500, KPA500, ...) you can pick the one
you like the best  -- or worry about the slight discrepancies in their
displays :-)

And, who knows what future enhancements might come along...

73,

Lyle KK7P (who is not aware of any enhancements at this time, but is
cognizant of Elecraft's track record in this regard)

> Now that I have the P3 TX Monitor I am wondering if this is anything more than a mere light-show for entertainment...
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Re: P3 TX Mon Usefulness?

turnbull
In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3
Phil,
    I do not yet have the TX monitor but in time will.    Whatever the
usefulness and it seems Lyle has answered this question, it is a feature
which many users clamored for.   Elecraft has provided an answer to many
users' desires.

    No need to purchase a W2 wattmeter now.   Smile and enjoy; life is good.

             73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Phil
Hystad
Sent: 12 August 2015 16:39
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] P3 TX Mon Usefulness?

Now that I have the P3 TX Monitor I am wondering if this is anything more
than a mere light-show for entertainment.  I am mostly CW and I find that
the actual TX display of the CW to be a bit silly looking and contrived.  In
fact, it looks like something fake to me and I say that not as a criticism
so much as a curiosity in wondering what the display actually shows.  

I have adjusted some of the TX Mon parameters to adjust the "size" of the
envelop display but I still am not sure I understand exactly what I am
seeing and if this has value other than ham radio eye candy.  Maybe I need a
chapter added to  the P3 writeup by Fred Cady (KE7X) describing the meaning
and analysis of wave shapes.

I actually like the power (peak power indicator) and SWR display but not
sure I would get rid of my LP-100A as a result.

No, I am not regretting the purchase, just wondering about the value of the
display.  From my very few experiments with SSB and the TX mon, I see a more
interesting display but certainly I can't easily tell if what I see tells me
anything useful to know or useful in analyzing signals from the K3.  Now, if
I could hook up the P3 TX Monitor feature to my Eico 720 CW transmitter and
see the wave shape of CW signals I might discover the major chirps that my
720 produces - But, a K3, it is near perfection in CW shaping (or, at least
to me it is).

Just a few observations and curiosity questions from a philistine among
experts.

73, phil, K7PEH

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Re: P3 TX Mon Usefulness?

Phil Hystad-3
I am not regretting my decision to buy the TX Mon — and, I would buy it
again if needed.

Lyle’s comments were good to hear — maybe Lyle should write a new chapter
in the P3 Owner’s Manual on the analysis of signals using the P3 TX mon.
So far, the only information in the manual is how to setup parameters and
a few other things — necessary and important but not yet sufficient to a full
understanding.

I have a W2 meter though, also a W1.  I use the W2 with all my QRP or other
rigs.  I have one W2 sensor but I switch that between my three major other
rigs.

73, phil


> On Aug 12, 2015, at 10:11 AM, Doug Turnbull <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Phil,
>    I do not yet have the TX monitor but in time will.    Whatever the
> usefulness and it seems Lyle has answered this question, it is a feature
> which many users clamored for.   Elecraft has provided an answer to many
> users' desires.
>
>    No need to purchase a W2 wattmeter now.   Smile and enjoy; life is good.
>
>             73 Doug EI2CN
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Phil
> Hystad
> Sent: 12 August 2015 16:39
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: [Elecraft] P3 TX Mon Usefulness?
>
> Now that I have the P3 TX Monitor I am wondering if this is anything more
> than a mere light-show for entertainment.  I am mostly CW and I find that
> the actual TX display of the CW to be a bit silly looking and contrived.  In
> fact, it looks like something fake to me and I say that not as a criticism
> so much as a curiosity in wondering what the display actually shows.  
>
> I have adjusted some of the TX Mon parameters to adjust the "size" of the
> envelop display but I still am not sure I understand exactly what I am
> seeing and if this has value other than ham radio eye candy.  Maybe I need a
> chapter added to  the P3 writeup by Fred Cady (KE7X) describing the meaning
> and analysis of wave shapes.
>
> I actually like the power (peak power indicator) and SWR display but not
> sure I would get rid of my LP-100A as a result.
>
> No, I am not regretting the purchase, just wondering about the value of the
> display.  From my very few experiments with SSB and the TX mon, I see a more
> interesting display but certainly I can't easily tell if what I see tells me
> anything useful to know or useful in analyzing signals from the K3.  Now, if
> I could hook up the P3 TX Monitor feature to my Eico 720 CW transmitter and
> see the wave shape of CW signals I might discover the major chirps that my
> 720 produces - But, a K3, it is near perfection in CW shaping (or, at least
> to me it is).
>
> Just a few observations and curiosity questions from a philistine among
> experts.
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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Re: P3 TX Mon Usefulness?

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by Lyle Johnson
On Wed,8/12/2015 10:00 AM, Lyle Johnson wrote:
> You *can* hook up your Eico 720 Tx and see its CW rise and fall times
> and perhaps use that information to dig into the radio and improve it.

You've GOT to be kidding -- CW waveshaping is spectacularly good
already. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it!  And, last I heard,
Wayne has the code locked up so it cannot be screwed up.

Besides, the time domain (rise/fall times) is the wrong way to look at
keying. The only effective way is in the frequency domain, where the P3
with SVGA can resolve to a few Hz when set for narrow scan widths.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: P3 TX Mon Usefulness?

Augie "Gus" Hansen


On 8/12/2015 4:20 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On Wed,8/12/2015 10:00 AM, Lyle Johnson wrote:
>> You *can* hook up your Eico 720 Tx and see its CW rise and fall times
>> and perhaps use that information to dig into the radio and improve it.
>
> You've GOT to be kidding -- CW waveshaping is spectacularly good
> already. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it!  And, last I heard,
> Wayne has the code locked up so it cannot be screwed up.
>
> Besides, the time domain (rise/fall times) is the wrong way to look at
> keying. The only effective way is in the frequency domain, where the
> P3 with SVGA can resolve to a few Hz when set for narrow scan widths.

Easy Jim,

The Eico 720 is a transmitter. I believe Lyle is talking about using the
P3 TX Monitor feature to look at its CW waveform.

73,
Gus Hansen
KB0YH

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Re: P3 TX Mon Usefulness?

Merv Schweigert
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
I think hes referring to improving the Eico 720 keying shape.



> On Wed,8/12/2015 10:00 AM, Lyle Johnson wrote:
>> You *can* hook up your Eico 720 Tx and see its CW rise and fall times
>> and perhaps use that information to dig into the radio and improve it.
>
> You've GOT to be kidding -- CW waveshaping is spectacularly good
> already. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it!  And, last I heard,
> Wayne has the code locked up so it cannot be screwed up.
>
> Besides, the time domain (rise/fall times) is the wrong way to look at
> keying. The only effective way is in the frequency domain, where the
> P3 with SVGA can resolve to a few Hz when set for narrow scan widths.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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Re: P3 TX Mon Usefulness?

Jim Brown-10
On Wed,8/12/2015 3:39 PM, Merv Schweigert wrote:
> I think hes referring to improving the Eico 720 keying shape.

Sorry, I missed that. :)  BUT -- the frequency domain is still the best
place to be looking at the signal as you make changes.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: P3 TX Mon Usefulness?

Phil Hystad-3

> On Aug 12, 2015, at 3:49 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Wed,8/12/2015 3:39 PM, Merv Schweigert wrote:
>> I think hes referring to improving the Eico 720 keying shape.
>
> Sorry, I missed that. :)  BUT -- the frequency domain is still the best place to be looking at the signal as you make changes.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: P3 TX Mon Usefulness?

Alan Bloom
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
On 08/12/2015 03:20 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> Besides, the time domain (rise/fall times) is the wrong way to look at
> keying. The only effective way is in the frequency domain, where the P3
> with SVGA can resolve to a few Hz when set for narrow scan widths.

A spectrum analyzer is the best way to tell *if* something is wrong, but
a time-domain display of the modulation waveform is the best way to
determine *what* is wrong.  You can easily see if the key clicks are due
to too fast a rise time, too fast a fall time, incorrect key shaping,
flat-topping in an external amplifier, insufficient bias in the
amplifier, parasitic oscillations, etc.  With a spectrum analyzer you
can only tell that the clicks are there, not what is causing them.

Alan N1AL
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Re: P3 TX Mon Usefulness?

Don Wilhelm-4
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
Jim and all,

I agree, the *best* way to look at keying is in the frequency domain,
but for those who do not have that capability, the time domain keying
waveshape can be beneficial.

The P3 TX MON option does not show the frequency domain, but it can
display the rise time and fall time of the CW keying envelope. Those
rise times and fall times (as well as the shape of the rise and fall
slope) are a good key to the cleanliness of the keying - the P3 TX MON
does provide that capability.  Whether the viewer can interpret that
information clearly and correctly to determine good/bad keying is
another question.  There is information available on the web showing
good and bad keying waveshapes.  The figures in the Elecraft K2 Keying
Waveshape Mod instructions is one such document.

An additional monitor receiver with an IF tap and equipped with a P3
would be necessary to view the frequency domain of the CW signal.
Quite possible for those who have 2 K3s (or K3S) and at least one
equipped with a P3, but that is not the "average ham".

While the P3 does show the received signal in the frequency domain, that
is developed from the IF frequency of the receiver.  The TX monitor sits
on the transmission line and must respond to the entire range of ham
band frequencies.  To expect the TX Mon option to convert any transmit
frequency to a frequency domain display is just not reasonable given
today's technology.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/12/2015 6:20 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>
> Besides, the time domain (rise/fall times) is the wrong way to look at
> keying. The only effective way is in the frequency domain, where the
> P3 with SVGA can resolve to a few Hz when set for narrow scan widths.

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Re: P3 TX Mon Usefulness?

Wes (N7WS)
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
Not if you're looking at an Eico 720. It will be difficult to identify keying
sidebands amongst the drift and chirp.

On 8/12/2015 3:49 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On Wed,8/12/2015 3:39 PM, Merv Schweigert wrote:
>> I think hes referring to improving the Eico 720 keying shape.
>
> Sorry, I missed that. :)  BUT -- the frequency domain is still the best place
> to be looking at the signal as you make changes.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
>

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Re: P3 TX Mon Usefulness?

Ted Roycraft-2
Sorry for the somewhat off-topic post but this is the first time I have
heard the Eico 720 mentioned in decades.  I happen to have one if anyone
is interested in buying it.

Ted, W2ZK

On 8/12/2015 11:06 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:

> Not if you're looking at an Eico 720. It will be difficult to identify
> keying sidebands amongst the drift and chirp.
>
> On 8/12/2015 3:49 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>> On Wed,8/12/2015 3:39 PM, Merv Schweigert wrote:
>>> I think hes referring to improving the Eico 720 keying shape.
>>
>> Sorry, I missed that. :)  BUT -- the frequency domain is still the
>> best place to be looking at the signal as you make changes.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> ______________________________________________________________
>>
>
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