P3SVGA

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P3SVGA

KV5J
Any info on when we might see the NB for the SVGA board??

Keith
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Re: P3SVGA

KV5J
I must be the only one that has bought a P3 with the SVGA board.  If no one else is interested in the NB like the P3 normal display.

Keith
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Re: P3SVGA

k5oai
I doesn't have anything to do with one of their new products, so there
is no reason to waste electrons asking or commenting.

They will get around to it when and if they ever decide to, or are
allowed to, work on something P3 or K3 related, and no amount of asking
will change that.

Sam

On 8/14/2014 4:35 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
> I must be the only one that has bought a P3 with the SVGA board.  If no one
> else is interested in the NB like the P3 normal display.
>
> Keith
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Re: P3SVGA

James Rogers
I have a P3, my second.  The first one had the SVGA card and I have not
missed a noise blanker at all, and I live in a garden home community
with lots of noise from every imaginable source. A noise blanker is only
effective against high rise time impulse noise I wonder if it would
truly be effective.

73s Jim, W4ATk

On 8/14/2014 4:55 PM, Sam Morgan wrote:

> I doesn't have anything to do with one of their new products, so there
> is no reason to waste electrons asking or commenting.
>
> They will get around to it when and if they ever decide to, or are
> allowed to, work on something P3 or K3 related, and no amount of
> asking will change that.
>
> Sam
>
> On 8/14/2014 4:35 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
>> I must be the only one that has bought a P3 with the SVGA board.  If
>> no one
>> else is interested in the NB like the P3 normal display.
>>
>> Keith
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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Re: P3SVGA

k5oai
In reply to this post by k5oai
my previous reply was the short answer, here is the long answer:

reference:
http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@.../msg171471.html

to quote Wayne from 7/10/2014 7:55 PM

<quote>
Hi all,

Our firmware task lists are sorted by priority. Determination of
Priority is democratic to some degree (Squeaky Wheel and other industry
standard methodologies). But in practice it involves
crystal-ball-gazing, head-counting, arm-wrestling-over-a-beer, and a
healthy dose of what-we-have-time-for.

It is not practical for us to publish the lists. They change daily and
contain a lot of firmware-speak. We'd rather spend time actually making
changes than on sanitizing lists for public consumption.

This is also the reason that we can't make announcements of the form "We
will not ever get to feature X." (Imagine trying to do that with your
personal Home Repair task list. Would your spouse let you unilaterally
decide to remove some of them?) We'd rather be optimistic about it,
since you never know when one of our overworked engineers is going to
get some unexpected free time.

The most useful guidance I can give you is this. If only one or two
users are affected by a particular change, it is less likely to be
implemented in the near future. If nearly all users are affected, it
darn well better be fixed instantly. Everything else is in a sort of
gray zone (see "Determination of Priority," above).

I take responsibility for any muttered oaths against Elecraft pertaining
to implementation delays. If it's any comfort: I read all the mail and
lose sleep over things we can't get to. All I can say is that we try to
make the best decisions we can, given engineering time available.

73,
Wayne
N6KR
</quote>


On 8/14/2014 4:55 PM, Sam Morgan wrote:

> I doesn't have anything to do with one of their new products, so there
> is no reason to waste electrons asking or commenting.
>
> They will get around to it when and if they ever decide to, or are
> allowed to, work on something P3 or K3 related, and no amount of asking
> will change that.
>
> Sam
>
> On 8/14/2014 4:35 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
>> I must be the only one that has bought a P3 with the SVGA board.  If
>> no one
>> else is interested in the NB like the P3 normal display.
>>
>> Keith
>

--
GB & 73
K5OAI
Sam Morgan
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Re: P3SVGA

Mike K2MK
In reply to this post by KV5J
Hi Keith,

I might be interested but I didn't bother downloading the firmware because I never look at the P3 screen, only the SVGA screen. How well does it work and weren't there some caveats mentioned in the release notes?

73,
Mike K2MK


XE3/K5ENS wrote
I must be the only one that has bought a P3 with the SVGA board.  If no one else is interested in the NB like the P3 normal display.

Keith
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Re: P3SVGA

tomb18
In reply to this post by k5oai
Ok, now I am going to be the “squeaky wheel”.
I am the author of Win4K3Suite.  With a customer base of a few hundred users (not one or two users) I have numerous times reported bugs and deficiencies in the Elecraft API through the elecraft support channels as well as directly to Wayne and have never had the decency of getting a reply. Support replies and tells me “It was forwarded to Wayne"

Not even “we are aware and this is in a future release”.  

This has been very frustrating and my response to my customers has been “I told them about it and haven’t heard anything”.  For a company that provides such a comprehensive API and support, to totally ignore comments from people who use their API as extensively as I do, is very unprofessional and very frustrating.

The only time, I have had a resolution to an issue is when a well know person from Microham, reported the issue in a much more, how can I say, forward way that I do, and it was resolved within a month.
The fact is that Elecraft has an API and encourages developers to develop products.  But somehow, it seems to me if the products do not match their “vision” on what the radio should be they are ignored.  That has been the case for me.
Here is something important: I have about 20 users that bought the radio because of my software. It hides the complexities and makes it very easy to use.  Is this against the Elecraft wishes for their radio?  I have to think so since I have 4 times requested to have my software listed on the Elecraft Website, under third party software and even Eric asked me to send a blurb but I never got a response at all.  4 times over 1 and 1/2 years.
So, unless many users ask for something on the forum, the priority is low.  If a developer who has a few hundred users asks for something in a nice way, several times, it’s ignored.  So is this the future of Elecrafts third party support?  Does my name have to be J** to get something done?
This is extremely frustrating, and I have a couple of hundred people that want a few things to be done but all I can tell them “I asked but never heard ANYTHING”.  So, maybe it’s time to be a “squeaky wheel” like now.
Tom Blahovici VA2FSQ
Win4K3Suite.

On Aug 14, 2014, at 8:08 PM, Sam Morgan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> my previous reply was the short answer, here is the long answer:
>
> reference:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@.../msg171471.html
>
> to quote Wayne from 7/10/2014 7:55 PM
>
> <quote>
> Hi all,
>
> Our firmware task lists are sorted by priority. Determination of Priority is democratic to some degree (Squeaky Wheel and other industry standard methodologies). But in practice it involves crystal-ball-gazing, head-counting, arm-wrestling-over-a-beer, and a healthy dose of what-we-have-time-for.
>
> It is not practical for us to publish the lists. They change daily and contain a lot of firmware-speak. We'd rather spend time actually making changes than on sanitizing lists for public consumption.
>
> This is also the reason that we can't make announcements of the form "We will not ever get to feature X." (Imagine trying to do that with your personal Home Repair task list. Would your spouse let you unilaterally decide to remove some of them?) We'd rather be optimistic about it, since you never know when one of our overworked engineers is going to get some unexpected free time.
>
> The most useful guidance I can give you is this. If only one or two users are affected by a particular change, it is less likely to be implemented in the near future. If nearly all users are affected, it darn well better be fixed instantly. Everything else is in a sort of gray zone (see "Determination of Priority," above).
>
> I take responsibility for any muttered oaths against Elecraft pertaining to implementation delays. If it's any comfort: I read all the mail and lose sleep over things we can't get to. All I can say is that we try to make the best decisions we can, given engineering time available.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
> </quote>
>
>
> On 8/14/2014 4:55 PM, Sam Morgan wrote:
>> I doesn't have anything to do with one of their new products, so there
>> is no reason to waste electrons asking or commenting.
>>
>> They will get around to it when and if they ever decide to, or are
>> allowed to, work on something P3 or K3 related, and no amount of asking
>> will change that.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>> On 8/14/2014 4:35 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
>>> I must be the only one that has bought a P3 with the SVGA board.  If
>>> no one
>>> else is interested in the NB like the P3 normal display.
>>>
>>> Keith
>>
>
> --
> GB & 73
> K5OAI
> Sam Morgan
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Re: P3SVGA

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

 > The only time, I have had a resolution to an issue is when a well
 > know person from Microham, reported the issue in a much more, how can
 > I say, forward way that I do, and it was resolved within a month.

Elecraft is quite responsive (issues a fix) if an issue is serious.
However, I have always received an acknowledgement of requests for
feature/API change when submitted through the developer channels.
That answer has not always been what I wanted to hear and I have a
long list of requests that have either been rejected or are on the
low priority list (in other words, not likely in my lifetime).

Others are correct, the Elecraft development staff is small.  That
means, of necessity, a large percentage of their time must be devoted
to work on new products with the majority of support for existing
products reserved for issues that cause equipment failure (e.g., the
input queue overflow).

On the other hand, when it comes to issues that cause improper
operation, Elecraft is orders of magnitude more responsive than some
logging software developers who do things that cause crashes (like
fast polling during transmit).

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2014-08-15 12:40 AM, Tom Blahovici wrote:

> Ok, now I am going to be the “squeaky wheel”.
> I am the author of Win4K3Suite.  With a customer base of a few hundred users (not one or two users) I have numerous times reported bugs and deficiencies in the Elecraft API through the elecraft support channels as well as directly to Wayne and have never had the decency of getting a reply. Support replies and tells me “It was forwarded to Wayne"
>
> Not even “we are aware and this is in a future release”.
>
> This has been very frustrating and my response to my customers has been “I told them about it and haven’t heard anything”.  For a company that provides such a comprehensive API and support, to totally ignore comments from people who use their API as extensively as I do, is very unprofessional and very frustrating.
>
> The only time, I have had a resolution to an issue is when a well know person from Microham, reported the issue in a much more, how can I say, forward way that I do, and it was resolved within a month.
> The fact is that Elecraft has an API and encourages developers to develop products.  But somehow, it seems to me if the products do not match their “vision” on what the radio should be they are ignored.  That has been the case for me.
> Here is something important: I have about 20 users that bought the radio because of my software. It hides the complexities and makes it very easy to use.  Is this against the Elecraft wishes for their radio?  I have to think so since I have 4 times requested to have my software listed on the Elecraft Website, under third party software and even Eric asked me to send a blurb but I never got a response at all.  4 times over 1 and 1/2 years.
> So, unless many users ask for something on the forum, the priority is low.  If a developer who has a few hundred users asks for something in a nice way, several times, it’s ignored.  So is this the future of Elecrafts third party support?  Does my name have to be J** to get something done?
> This is extremely frustrating, and I have a couple of hundred people that want a few things to be done but all I can tell them “I asked but never heard ANYTHING”.  So, maybe it’s time to be a “squeaky wheel” like now.
> Tom Blahovici VA2FSQ
> Win4K3Suite.
>
> On Aug 14, 2014, at 8:08 PM, Sam Morgan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> my previous reply was the short answer, here is the long answer:
>>
>> reference:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@.../msg171471.html
>>
>> to quote Wayne from 7/10/2014 7:55 PM
>>
>> <quote>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Our firmware task lists are sorted by priority. Determination of Priority is democratic to some degree (Squeaky Wheel and other industry standard methodologies). But in practice it involves crystal-ball-gazing, head-counting, arm-wrestling-over-a-beer, and a healthy dose of what-we-have-time-for.
>>
>> It is not practical for us to publish the lists. They change daily and contain a lot of firmware-speak. We'd rather spend time actually making changes than on sanitizing lists for public consumption.
>>
>> This is also the reason that we can't make announcements of the form "We will not ever get to feature X." (Imagine trying to do that with your personal Home Repair task list. Would your spouse let you unilaterally decide to remove some of them?) We'd rather be optimistic about it, since you never know when one of our overworked engineers is going to get some unexpected free time.
>>
>> The most useful guidance I can give you is this. If only one or two users are affected by a particular change, it is less likely to be implemented in the near future. If nearly all users are affected, it darn well better be fixed instantly. Everything else is in a sort of gray zone (see "Determination of Priority," above).
>>
>> I take responsibility for any muttered oaths against Elecraft pertaining to implementation delays. If it's any comfort: I read all the mail and lose sleep over things we can't get to. All I can say is that we try to make the best decisions we can, given engineering time available.
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>> </quote>
>>
>>
>> On 8/14/2014 4:55 PM, Sam Morgan wrote:
>>> I doesn't have anything to do with one of their new products, so there
>>> is no reason to waste electrons asking or commenting.
>>>
>>> They will get around to it when and if they ever decide to, or are
>>> allowed to, work on something P3 or K3 related, and no amount of asking
>>> will change that.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>>> On 8/14/2014 4:35 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
>>>> I must be the only one that has bought a P3 with the SVGA board.  If
>>>> no one
>>>> else is interested in the NB like the P3 normal display.
>>>>
>>>> Keith
>>>
>>
>> --
>> GB & 73
>> K5OAI
>> Sam Morgan
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Re: P3SVGA

W2RMS
And that's why people came with Open Source concept.
Historically, proprietary platforms have been eliminated or converted to either completely Open Source or partially, similar to what Apple did:
the platform is semi-open in the sense that nothing goes to Production without their validation and approval.
I believe this model could work very nicely for Elecraft.
Publish the bare-bones design and have the community take a stab at it.
You could still maintain the basic approach and have some immutable things in there, that we can't change.
But majority of these requests are outside of the basic design.
Such model allows a company to maintain a relatively small support staff but still be "out there" as far as usability and community support.

Just my .02c
__________________
Slava (Sal) B, W2RMS
[hidden email]

On Aug 15, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > The only time, I have had a resolution to an issue is when a well
> > know person from Microham, reported the issue in a much more, how can
> > I say, forward way that I do, and it was resolved within a month.
>
> Elecraft is quite responsive (issues a fix) if an issue is serious.
> However, I have always received an acknowledgement of requests for
> feature/API change when submitted through the developer channels.
> That answer has not always been what I wanted to hear and I have a
> long list of requests that have either been rejected or are on the
> low priority list (in other words, not likely in my lifetime).
>
> Others are correct, the Elecraft development staff is small.  That
> means, of necessity, a large percentage of their time must be devoted
> to work on new products with the majority of support for existing
> products reserved for issues that cause equipment failure (e.g., the
> input queue overflow).
>
> On the other hand, when it comes to issues that cause improper
> operation, Elecraft is orders of magnitude more responsive than some
> logging software developers who do things that cause crashes (like
> fast polling during transmit).
>
> 73,
>
>   ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2014-08-15 12:40 AM, Tom Blahovici wrote:
>> Ok, now I am going to be the “squeaky wheel”.
>> I am the author of Win4K3Suite.  With a customer base of a few hundred users (not one or two users) I have numerous times reported bugs and deficiencies in the Elecraft API through the elecraft support channels as well as directly to Wayne and have never had the decency of getting a reply. Support replies and tells me “It was forwarded to Wayne"
>>
>> Not even “we are aware and this is in a future release”.
>>
>> This has been very frustrating and my response to my customers has been “I told them about it and haven’t heard anything”.  For a company that provides such a comprehensive API and support, to totally ignore comments from people who use their API as extensively as I do, is very unprofessional and very frustrating.
>>
>> The only time, I have had a resolution to an issue is when a well know person from Microham, reported the issue in a much more, how can I say, forward way that I do, and it was resolved within a month.
>> The fact is that Elecraft has an API and encourages developers to develop products.  But somehow, it seems to me if the products do not match their “vision” on what the radio should be they are ignored.  That has been the case for me.
>> Here is something important: I have about 20 users that bought the radio because of my software. It hides the complexities and makes it very easy to use.  Is this against the Elecraft wishes for their radio?  I have to think so since I have 4 times requested to have my software listed on the Elecraft Website, under third party software and even Eric asked me to send a blurb but I never got a response at all.  4 times over 1 and 1/2 years.
>> So, unless many users ask for something on the forum, the priority is low.  If a developer who has a few hundred users asks for something in a nice way, several times, it’s ignored.  So is this the future of Elecrafts third party support?  Does my name have to be J** to get something done?
>> This is extremely frustrating, and I have a couple of hundred people that want a few things to be done but all I can tell them “I asked but never heard ANYTHING”.  So, maybe it’s time to be a “squeaky wheel” like now.
>> Tom Blahovici VA2FSQ
>> Win4K3Suite.
>>
>> On Aug 14, 2014, at 8:08 PM, Sam Morgan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> my previous reply was the short answer, here is the long answer:
>>>
>>> reference:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@.../msg171471.html
>>>
>>> to quote Wayne from 7/10/2014 7:55 PM
>>>
>>> <quote>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Our firmware task lists are sorted by priority. Determination of Priority is democratic to some degree (Squeaky Wheel and other industry standard methodologies). But in practice it involves crystal-ball-gazing, head-counting, arm-wrestling-over-a-beer, and a healthy dose of what-we-have-time-for.
>>>
>>> It is not practical for us to publish the lists. They change daily and contain a lot of firmware-speak. We'd rather spend time actually making changes than on sanitizing lists for public consumption.
>>>
>>> This is also the reason that we can't make announcements of the form "We will not ever get to feature X." (Imagine trying to do that with your personal Home Repair task list. Would your spouse let you unilaterally decide to remove some of them?) We'd rather be optimistic about it, since you never know when one of our overworked engineers is going to get some unexpected free time.
>>>
>>> The most useful guidance I can give you is this. If only one or two users are affected by a particular change, it is less likely to be implemented in the near future. If nearly all users are affected, it darn well better be fixed instantly. Everything else is in a sort of gray zone (see "Determination of Priority," above).
>>>
>>> I take responsibility for any muttered oaths against Elecraft pertaining to implementation delays. If it's any comfort: I read all the mail and lose sleep over things we can't get to. All I can say is that we try to make the best decisions we can, given engineering time available.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>> </quote>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/14/2014 4:55 PM, Sam Morgan wrote:
>>>> I doesn't have anything to do with one of their new products, so there
>>>> is no reason to waste electrons asking or commenting.
>>>>
>>>> They will get around to it when and if they ever decide to, or are
>>>> allowed to, work on something P3 or K3 related, and no amount of asking
>>>> will change that.
>>>>
>>>> Sam
>>>>
>>>> On 8/14/2014 4:35 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
>>>>> I must be the only one that has bought a P3 with the SVGA board.  If
>>>>> no one
>>>>> else is interested in the NB like the P3 normal display.
>>>>>
>>>>> Keith
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> GB & 73
>>> K5OAI
>>> Sam Morgan
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Re: P3SVGA

KV5J
My complaint is that I feel deceived about this product(P3SVGA add-on).  Looking at the description I am lead to believe that the P3SVGA add-on board will allow me to view what I am seeing on the P3 on a large external screen.  That is the way I read the ad.  But this is NOT the case.  I feel kinda cheated on this product.  The ad needs to be changed to reflect this point.  The P3SVGA display is NOT a copy of the P3 screen.  I know the digital decoding is added.  By the way has, for me using a K3 for 6 years, never worked well enough on weak signals to be beneficial. Whatever happens the NB is something I'd like to see added and I will lobby for it as much as I can.  Hoping someday to see this added.

73,

Keith
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Re: P3SVGA

Phil Wheeler-2
Are you complaining because you see *more* info on
the SVGA than on the P3?  Or is this your NB issue?

Has the NB on the P3 gone beyond the beta stage?
If not it cannot be advertised at all.  Anyway, I
seldom use it with the P3.

Phil W7OX

On 8/15/14, 7:24 AM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:

> My complaint is that I feel deceived about this product(P3SVGA add-on).
> Looking at the description I am lead to believe that the P3SVGA add-on board
> will allow me to view what I am seeing on the P3 on a large external screen.
> That is the way I read the ad.  But this is NOT the case.  I feel kinda
> cheated on this product.  The ad needs to be changed to reflect this point.
> The P3SVGA display is NOT a copy of the P3 screen.  I know the digital
> decoding is added.  By the way has, for me using a K3 for 6 years, never
> worked well enough on weak signals to be beneficial. Whatever happens the NB
> is something I'd like to see added and I will lobby for it as much as I can.
> Hoping someday to see this added.
>
> 73,
>
> Keith

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Re: P3SVGA

KV5J
I am saying I see signals on the P3 with the NB on that I can not see on the P3SVGA screen.

Keith
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Re: P3SVGA

Joe Subich, W4TV-4
In reply to this post by Phil Wheeler-2

 > Has the NB on the P3 gone beyond the beta stage?

Yes, it is in production firmware 1.29 although the Owner's Manual
(Rev D) and Programmer's Reference (Rev A4) do not appear to have
been updated to include the feature.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2014-08-15 10:45 AM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
> Are you complaining because you see *more* info on the SVGA than on the
> P3?  Or is this your NB issue?
>
> Has the NB on the P3 gone beyond the beta stage? If not it cannot be
> advertised at all.  Anyway, I seldom use it with the P3.
>
> Phil W7OX
>
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Re: P3SVGA

Chester Alderman
In reply to this post by W2RMS
To me that is just a silly expectation for ANY ham radio manufacturer to
consider. Can you just imagine what a quagmire Elecraft would generate if
they open-sourced their firmware? They would have to stop producing
profitable products just to spend time trying to pull software 'expurts' out
of the trouble they themselves generated.

And once the 'community' turned the firmware into total trash, then you
would expect Elecraft to bail you out????

Just my .02c

Tom - W4BQF


-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Slava
Baytalskiy
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 9:14 AM
To: Joe Subich, W4TV
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3SVGA

And that's why people came with Open Source concept.
Historically, proprietary platforms have been eliminated or converted to
either completely Open Source or partially, similar to what Apple did:
the platform is semi-open in the sense that nothing goes to Production
without their validation and approval.
I believe this model could work very nicely for Elecraft.
Publish the bare-bones design and have the community take a stab at it.
You could still maintain the basic approach and have some immutable things
in there, that we can't change.
But majority of these requests are outside of the basic design.
Such model allows a company to maintain a relatively small support staff but
still be "out there" as far as usability and community support.

Just my .02c
__________________
Slava (Sal) B, W2RMS
[hidden email]

On Aug 15, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > The only time, I have had a resolution to an issue is when a well
> > know person from Microham, reported the issue in a much more, how
> > can I say, forward way that I do, and it was resolved within a month.
>
> Elecraft is quite responsive (issues a fix) if an issue is serious.
> However, I have always received an acknowledgement of requests for
> feature/API change when submitted through the developer channels.
> That answer has not always been what I wanted to hear and I have a
> long list of requests that have either been rejected or are on the low
> priority list (in other words, not likely in my lifetime).
>
> Others are correct, the Elecraft development staff is small.  That
> means, of necessity, a large percentage of their time must be devoted
> to work on new products with the majority of support for existing
> products reserved for issues that cause equipment failure (e.g., the
> input queue overflow).
>
> On the other hand, when it comes to issues that cause improper
> operation, Elecraft is orders of magnitude more responsive than some
> logging software developers who do things that cause crashes (like
> fast polling during transmit).
>
> 73,
>
>   ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2014-08-15 12:40 AM, Tom Blahovici wrote:
>> Ok, now I am going to be the "squeaky wheel".
>> I am the author of Win4K3Suite.  With a customer base of a few hundred
users (not one or two users) I have numerous times reported bugs and
deficiencies in the Elecraft API through the elecraft support channels as
well as directly to Wayne and have never had the decency of getting a reply.
Support replies and tells me "It was forwarded to Wayne"
>>
>> Not even "we are aware and this is in a future release".
>>
>> This has been very frustrating and my response to my customers has been
"I told them about it and haven't heard anything".  For a company that
provides such a comprehensive API and support, to totally ignore comments
from people who use their API as extensively as I do, is very unprofessional
and very frustrating.
>>
>> The only time, I have had a resolution to an issue is when a well know
person from Microham, reported the issue in a much more, how can I say,
forward way that I do, and it was resolved within a month.
>> The fact is that Elecraft has an API and encourages developers to develop
products.  But somehow, it seems to me if the products do not match their
"vision" on what the radio should be they are ignored.  That has been the
case for me.
>> Here is something important: I have about 20 users that bought the radio
because of my software. It hides the complexities and makes it very easy to
use.  Is this against the Elecraft wishes for their radio?  I have to think
so since I have 4 times requested to have my software listed on the Elecraft
Website, under third party software and even Eric asked me to send a blurb
but I never got a response at all.  4 times over 1 and 1/2 years.
>> So, unless many users ask for something on the forum, the priority is
low.  If a developer who has a few hundred users asks for something in a
nice way, several times, it's ignored.  So is this the future of Elecrafts
third party support?  Does my name have to be J** to get something done?
>> This is extremely frustrating, and I have a couple of hundred people that
want a few things to be done but all I can tell them "I asked but never
heard ANYTHING".  So, maybe it's time to be a "squeaky wheel" like now.

>> Tom Blahovici VA2FSQ
>> Win4K3Suite.
>>
>> On Aug 14, 2014, at 8:08 PM, Sam Morgan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> my previous reply was the short answer, here is the long answer:
>>>
>>> reference:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@.../msg171471.html
>>>
>>> to quote Wayne from 7/10/2014 7:55 PM
>>>
>>> <quote>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Our firmware task lists are sorted by priority. Determination of
Priority is democratic to some degree (Squeaky Wheel and other industry
standard methodologies). But in practice it involves crystal-ball-gazing,
head-counting, arm-wrestling-over-a-beer, and a healthy dose of
what-we-have-time-for.
>>>
>>> It is not practical for us to publish the lists. They change daily and
contain a lot of firmware-speak. We'd rather spend time actually making
changes than on sanitizing lists for public consumption.
>>>
>>> This is also the reason that we can't make announcements of the form "We
will not ever get to feature X." (Imagine trying to do that with your
personal Home Repair task list. Would your spouse let you unilaterally
decide to remove some of them?) We'd rather be optimistic about it, since
you never know when one of our overworked engineers is going to get some
unexpected free time.
>>>
>>> The most useful guidance I can give you is this. If only one or two
users are affected by a particular change, it is less likely to be
implemented in the near future. If nearly all users are affected, it darn
well better be fixed instantly. Everything else is in a sort of gray zone
(see "Determination of Priority," above).
>>>
>>> I take responsibility for any muttered oaths against Elecraft pertaining
to implementation delays. If it's any comfort: I read all the mail and lose
sleep over things we can't get to. All I can say is that we try to make the
best decisions we can, given engineering time available.

>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>> </quote>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/14/2014 4:55 PM, Sam Morgan wrote:
>>>> I doesn't have anything to do with one of their new products, so
>>>> there is no reason to waste electrons asking or commenting.
>>>>
>>>> They will get around to it when and if they ever decide to, or are
>>>> allowed to, work on something P3 or K3 related, and no amount of
>>>> asking will change that.
>>>>
>>>> Sam
>>>>
>>>> On 8/14/2014 4:35 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
>>>>> I must be the only one that has bought a P3 with the SVGA board.  
>>>>> If no one else is interested in the NB like the P3 normal display.
>>>>>
>>>>> Keith
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> GB & 73
>>> K5OAI
>>> Sam Morgan
>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>
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Re: P3SVGA

Hisashi T Fujinaka
Well, you just described my day job. We sell hardware (Ethernet
controllers) and the driver I support is open sourced Linux and FreeBSD.
There are also closed-source versions but I only do backup-support on
those.

Yes, it would require more support on Elecraft's end but it wouldn't be
impossible to manage, just hard. There's a lot of repeating, "If you
can't reproduce it on the official X version driver, then you're on your
own." But then again there are a lot of bug fixes that other people can
do for you.

I don't blame them for not doing it, but I'm still on the "It would be
nice" side of this.

Oe Fri, 15 Aug 2014, Chester Alderman wrote:

> To me that is just a silly expectation for ANY ham radio manufacturer to
> consider. Can you just imagine what a quagmire Elecraft would generate if
> they open-sourced their firmware? They would have to stop producing
> profitable products just to spend time trying to pull software 'expurts' out
> of the trouble they themselves generated.
>
> And once the 'community' turned the firmware into total trash, then you
> would expect Elecraft to bail you out????

--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email]  - K7EMI
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
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Re: P3SVGA

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by KV5J
On 8/15/2014 7:24 AM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
> The ad needs to be changed to reflect this point.
> The P3SVGA display is NOT a copy of the P3 screen.  I know the digital
> decoding is added.  By the way has, for me using a K3 for 6 years, never
> worked well enough on weak signals to be beneficial.

It isn't clear whether you mean that the P3SVGA doesn't work well
displaying weak signals, or that the decoding doesn't work well. First,
the decoding is done by the K3, and the P3SVGA simply displays it in a
more user-friendly form.  Second, the SVGA displays a completely
different FFT with more bins (better resolution), with the same
frequency and amplitude settings of the P3. The P3SVGA can be set for a
very long waterfall time, which is quite useful finding holes in
contests and DX pileups. And both the P3 and P3SVGA are VERY good at
finding weak signals if set for maximum averaging and fixed tune mode.

I regularly use a P3 to find action on VHF, and I've got an LOTW QSL
from Iraq because the P3 found him somewhere different from where he was
spotted. I work CW, SSB, JT65, FSK441, and ISCAT-B on 6M, so I set the
P3 to monitor from 50.080 to 50.280. This lets me see action on CW and
SSB when I'm in RX mode of one of the WSJT modes. I've picked up at
least a dozen grids this season because I saw them on the P3.

73, Jim K9YC



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Re: P3SVGA

KV5J
Jim,

You are mixing 2 completely different items.  The decoding of the digital signals I could care less how that works.  I don't use that function.  I am saying that on the P3 screen with the NB on I can see weaker signals than I can see on the P3SVGA screen.  The noise blanker does not work on the P3SVGA board.  I would like to see the NB function with the P3SVGA screen.  I also stated that to read the ad for the P3 it reads that I should expect to see the same screen on the P3SVGA as I see on the P3. Only with higher resolution.  But that's not true.  Since the NB only works on the P3 the screens are different.


Keith
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Re: P3SVGA

Jim Brown-10
On 8/15/2014 9:36 AM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
> I am
> saying that on the P3 screen with the NB on I can see weaker signals than I
> can see on the P3SVGA screen.

http://www.elecraft.com/P3/p3.htm  Scroll down to see a photo of how the
SVGA compares to the P3 screen.

Repeating my advice -- to see very weak signals, we need to do a lot of
averaging to get rid of the noise. This is not a "blanking" function,
but rather how averaging a spectral display causes random noise to
cancel itself out, while discrete signals do not. There are separate
display settings for the SVGA and for the P3. The SVGA settings are
accessed via the SVGA selection on the Menu.

Also -- the K3 NB is really two NBs, and the one that looks at broadband
noise DOES work in both the P3 and P3SVGA.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: P3SVGA

KV5J
Jim,

The NB in the P3 is a completely different animal than what is used in the K3.  It is more of a visual aid and does not need to worry about the audio.  My understanding of this NB is that if used on the audio all you would hear is sounds like a typewriter.  The NB in the P3 does an excellent job on the type of noise it is designed to be applied.  Before you continue I would suggest you try the NB for the P3.  It is wonderful here at my location.  All I asked was if there was any news about implementing this NB for the P3SVGA add-on.  Since I have the P3SVGA board and a nice display I'd like to see the display without all the extra noise.  I hate how every time someone makes a comment that they think is negative to Elecraft the person making the comment is flamed.  Most of the flamers have little idea what's happening and I wish they'd keep their mouths shut.


Keith
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Re: P3SVGA

Jim Brown-10
On 8/15/2014 10:14 AM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
> I hate how every time someone
> makes a comment that they think is negative to Elecraft the person making
> the comment is flamed.

Who is flaming whom?  Certainly not me -- I'm simply trying to help you
and others get the most from your gear. And I also pointed you and
others to the Elecraft P3 webpage, which clearly describes and shows
what the SVGA module does.

73, Jim K9YC
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