Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

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Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

AB2E Darrell
Hello all,
       I am the proud new owner of a new K3. I am also the proud new owner of an SPE Expert 1.3K-FA solid state amp, and I have a question for the group regarding interfacing the K3 to the amp.

My current setup is using my Icom 756 Pro III with the SPE Expert 1.3K-FA. The recommended setup for Icom was to connect both the Relay and ALC cables between the rig and amp. This is because the software in the amp automatically reduces the power in the rig to the best output level for the amp (on the amp LOW=500W out= 3W drive, MID= 1000W out= 6W drive, HIGH = 1500W out = 9W drive). It works flawlessly. Actually, I could leave the power on the Pro III untouched, and the amp reduces the power accordingly.

My question for the group is, is there a way to allow the K3's output to be controlled by the amp? I see the note on p27 about not using an amp to control the K3's output, but wonder if there is a safe way to do it. For instance, could the K3 be set to say 15W out on all bands via the menu, then allow the amp to control the output via ALC for optimum drive?

Any info and comments appreciated.
73 Darrell AB2E

     
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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

> This is because the software in the amp automatically reduces the
> power in the rig to the best output level for the amp (on the amp
> LOW=500W out= 3W drive, MID= 1000W out= 6W drive, HIGH = 1500W out =
> 9W drive). It works flawlessly. Actually, I could leave the power on
> the Pro III untouched, and the amp reduces the power accordingly.

Is SPE shipping amplifiers that violate type acceptance or did you
modify that amplifier?  Any commercial amplifier sold in the US can
have a maximum gain of 15 dB.  Your Expert 1.3K-FA shows 22 dB -
nearly 6 dB above the limit.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2015-04-02 10:34 PM, AB2E Darrell wrote:

> Hello all,
>         I am the proud new owner of a new K3. I am also the proud new owner of an SPE Expert 1.3K-FA solid state amp, and I have a question for the group regarding interfacing the K3 to the amp.
>
> My current setup is using my Icom 756 Pro III with the SPE Expert 1.3K-FA. The recommended setup for Icom was to connect both the Relay and ALC cables between the rig and amp. This is because the software in the amp automatically reduces the power in the rig to the best output level for the amp (on the amp LOW=500W out= 3W drive, MID= 1000W out= 6W drive, HIGH = 1500W out = 9W drive). It works flawlessly. Actually, I could leave the power on the Pro III untouched, and the amp reduces the power accordingly.
>
> My question for the group is, is there a way to allow the K3's output to be controlled by the amp? I see the note on p27 about not using an amp to control the K3's output, but wonder if there is a safe way to do it. For instance, could the K3 be set to say 15W out on all bands via the menu, then allow the amp to control the output via ALC for optimum drive?
>
> Any info and comments appreciated.
> 73 Darrell AB2E
>
>    
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

wayne burdick
Administrator
In reply to this post by AB2E Darrell
Hi Darrell,

Nearly all ALC systems cause splatter, and some are horrible. Letting the amp control a radio's drive level is pretty much worst-case. This just about guarantees clicky, distorted ALC response as well as poorly shaped CW keying.

Instead, we recommend adjusting the K3's drive level per-band (see CONFIG:PWR SET) to just reach the desired power level at the amp's output. This way, little if any ALC is used. The per-band levels are stored at the K3 and recalled as you change bands.

The K3 has its own very clean internal, slow ALC to compensate for minor gain variations. We also apply ALC and compression within the DSP, at the audio stages--again with intent to minimize splatter. All gain-controlled stages are pre-crystal filter, ensuring that any dynamics are entirely band-limited before they ever get to an output stage.

This goes counter to instructions for some amps. They assume you are not capable of properly adjusting the drive to compensate for per-band variations, so they instruct you to crank it to the max at the rig. But the proof can be heard on the air. A K3 properly adjusted per-band will be exceptionally clean.

73,
Wayne
N6KR




On Apr 2, 2015, at 7:34 PM, AB2E Darrell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello all,
>       I am the proud new owner of a new K3. I am also the proud new owner of an SPE Expert 1.3K-FA solid state amp, and I have a question for the group regarding interfacing the K3 to the amp.
>
> My current setup is using my Icom 756 Pro III with the SPE Expert 1.3K-FA. The recommended setup for Icom was to connect both the Relay and ALC cables between the rig and amp. This is because the software in the amp automatically reduces the power in the rig to the best output level for the amp (on the amp LOW=500W out= 3W drive, MID= 1000W out= 6W drive, HIGH = 1500W out = 9W drive). It works flawlessly. Actually, I could leave the power on the Pro III untouched, and the amp reduces the power accordingly.
>
> My question for the group is, is there a way to allow the K3's output to be controlled by the amp? I see the note on p27 about not using an amp to control the K3's output, but wonder if there is a safe way to do it. For instance, could the K3 be set to say 15W out on all bands via the menu, then allow the amp to control the output via ALC for optimum drive?
>
> Any info and comments appreciated.
> 73 Darrell AB2E
>
>    
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Guy Olinger K2AV
In reply to this post by AB2E Darrell
Do not use ALC to throttle K3 power levels. Regardless of what amp
manufacturers say, ALC used in that fashion is one of the worst generators
of splatter and key clicks around. They say that to keep amps from being
blown up by severe overdrive and returned under warranty.

Just don't connect it. Power levels are remembered by band/mode/ant on your
K3 and you can set power output for safe clean rated operation of your amp.

73, Guy K2AV

On Thursday, April 2, 2015, AB2E Darrell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello all,
>        I am the proud new owner of a new K3. I am also the proud new owner
> of an SPE Expert 1.3K-FA solid state amp, and I have a question for the
> group regarding interfacing the K3 to the amp.
>
> My current setup is using my Icom 756 Pro III with the SPE Expert 1.3K-FA.
> The recommended setup for Icom was to connect both the Relay and ALC cables
> between the rig and amp. This is because the software in the amp
> automatically reduces the power in the rig to the best output level for the
> amp (on the amp LOW=500W out= 3W drive, MID= 1000W out= 6W drive, HIGH =
> 1500W out = 9W drive). It works flawlessly. Actually, I could leave the
> power on the Pro III untouched, and the amp reduces the power accordingly.
>
> My question for the group is, is there a way to allow the K3's output to
> be controlled by the amp? I see the note on p27 about not using an amp to
> control the K3's output, but wonder if there is a safe way to do it. For
> instance, could the K3 be set to say 15W out on all bands via the menu,
> then allow the amp to control the output via ALC for optimum drive?
>
> Any info and comments appreciated.
> 73 Darrell AB2E
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>


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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

AB2E Darrell
Guy,
Thanks for the tip, and a couple others who say the same thing.
I'll forget using ALC and use the internal power levels per band for driving the amp.

Thanks all and 73,
Darrell AB2E


Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 23:00:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
CC: [hidden email]

Do not use ALC to throttle K3 power levels. Regardless of what amp manufacturers say, ALC used in that fashion is one of the worst generators of splatter and key clicks around. They say that to keep amps from being blown up by severe overdrive and returned under warranty.
Just don't connect it. Power levels are remembered by band/mode/ant on your K3 and you can set power output for safe clean rated operation of your amp.
73, Guy K2AV

On Thursday, April 2, 2015, AB2E Darrell <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello all,

       I am the proud new owner of a new K3. I am also the proud new owner of an SPE Expert 1.3K-FA solid state amp, and I have a question for the group regarding interfacing the K3 to the amp.



My current setup is using my Icom 756 Pro III with the SPE Expert 1.3K-FA. The recommended setup for Icom was to connect both the Relay and ALC cables between the rig and amp. This is because the software in the amp automatically reduces the power in the rig to the best output level for the amp (on the amp LOW=500W out= 3W drive, MID= 1000W out= 6W drive, HIGH = 1500W out = 9W drive). It works flawlessly. Actually, I could leave the power on the Pro III untouched, and the amp reduces the power accordingly.



My question for the group is, is there a way to allow the K3's output to be controlled by the amp? I see the note on p27 about not using an amp to control the K3's output, but wonder if there is a safe way to do it. For instance, could the K3 be set to say 15W out on all bands via the menu, then allow the amp to control the output via ALC for optimum drive?



Any info and comments appreciated.

73 Darrell AB2E





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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Igor Sokolov-2
In reply to this post by AB2E Darrell
Darrell,
I have exactly the same setup. Before that I had used K3 and Expert 1K-FA.
Never used ALC,  just power per band. ALC backward regulating output power
is the cause of interference.

73, Igor UA9CDC

----- Original Message -----
From: "AB2E Darrell" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 7:34 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp


> Hello all,
>       I am the proud new owner of a new K3. I am also the proud new owner
> of an SPE Expert 1.3K-FA solid state amp, and I have a question for the
> group regarding interfacing the K3 to the amp.
>
> My current setup is using my Icom 756 Pro III with the SPE Expert 1.3K-FA.
> The recommended setup for Icom was to connect both the Relay and ALC
> cables between the rig and amp. This is because the software in the amp
> automatically reduces the power in the rig to the best output level for
> the amp (on the amp LOW=500W out= 3W drive, MID= 1000W out= 6W drive, HIGH
> = 1500W out = 9W drive). It works flawlessly. Actually, I could leave the
> power on the Pro III untouched, and the amp reduces the power accordingly.
>
> My question for the group is, is there a way to allow the K3's output to
> be controlled by the amp? I see the note on p27 about not using an amp to
> control the K3's output, but wonder if there is a safe way to do it. For
> instance, could the K3 be set to say 15W out on all bands via the menu,
> then allow the amp to control the output via ALC for optimum drive?
>
> Any info and comments appreciated.
> 73 Darrell AB2E
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Igor Sokolov-2
In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4
Joe,
As I was told, they ship it with the pad at the input to meet FCC
requirement of  max 15db gain. But the pad can be easily bypassed. Just
wonder, what is the reason for such a requirement?

73, Igor UA9CDC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp


>
>> This is because the software in the amp automatically reduces the
>> power in the rig to the best output level for the amp (on the amp
>> LOW=500W out= 3W drive, MID= 1000W out= 6W drive, HIGH = 1500W out =
>> 9W drive). It works flawlessly. Actually, I could leave the power on
>> the Pro III untouched, and the amp reduces the power accordingly.
>
> Is SPE shipping amplifiers that violate type acceptance or did you
> modify that amplifier?  Any commercial amplifier sold in the US can
> have a maximum gain of 15 dB.  Your Expert 1.3K-FA shows 22 dB -
> nearly 6 dB above the limit.
>
> 73,
>
>   ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2015-04-02 10:34 PM, AB2E Darrell wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>         I am the proud new owner of a new K3. I am also the proud new
>> owner of an SPE Expert 1.3K-FA solid state amp, and I have a question for
>> the group regarding interfacing the K3 to the amp.
>>
>> My current setup is using my Icom 756 Pro III with the SPE Expert
>> 1.3K-FA. The recommended setup for Icom was to connect both the Relay and
>> ALC cables between the rig and amp. This is because the software in the
>> amp automatically reduces the power in the rig to the best output level
>> for the amp (on the amp LOW=500W out= 3W drive, MID= 1000W out= 6W drive,
>> HIGH = 1500W out = 9W drive). It works flawlessly. Actually, I could
>> leave the power on the Pro III untouched, and the amp reduces the power
>> accordingly.
>>
>> My question for the group is, is there a way to allow the K3's output to
>> be controlled by the amp? I see the note on p27 about not using an amp to
>> control the K3's output, but wonder if there is a safe way to do it. For
>> instance, could the K3 be set to say 15W out on all bands via the menu,
>> then allow the amp to control the output via ALC for optimum drive?
>>
>> Any info and comments appreciated.
>> 73 Darrell AB2E
>>
>>      ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Ross Primrose
On 4/3/2015 1:30 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote:
> Joe,
> As I was told, they ship it with the pad at the input to meet FCC
> requirement of  max 15db gain. But the pad can be easily bypassed.
> Just wonder, what is the reason for such a requirement?

11m.....

73, Ross N4RP

--
FCC Section 97.313(a) “At all times, an amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.”

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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Joe Subich, W4TV-4
In reply to this post by Igor Sokolov-2

> Just wonder, what is the reason for such a requirement?

The requirement goes back to the 1970's and is designed to prevent
amateur amplifiers from being used for unlicensed ("freeband")
operation with 5 Watt CB exciters.  The intent was to match the
gain needed to reach the US legal output power with the drive
available from the typical exciter power level.

For the Expert amplifiers to show 22 dB gain, they must be shipping
without the attenuator or the distributor is removing the attenuators
- both of which violate the type acceptance.  On a deeper level, to
design an amplifier with that much gain is bad design - part of the
excess gains should be used for negative feedback to reduce IMD and
improve stability.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2015-04-03 1:30 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote:

> Joe,
> As I was told, they ship it with the pad at the input to meet FCC
> requirement of  max 15db gain. But the pad can be easily bypassed. Just
> wonder, what is the reason for such a requirement?
>
> 73, Igor UA9CDC
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 7:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp
>
>
>>
>>> This is because the software in the amp automatically reduces the
>>> power in the rig to the best output level for the amp (on the amp
>>> LOW=500W out= 3W drive, MID= 1000W out= 6W drive, HIGH = 1500W out =
>>> 9W drive). It works flawlessly. Actually, I could leave the power on
>>> the Pro III untouched, and the amp reduces the power accordingly.
>>
>> Is SPE shipping amplifiers that violate type acceptance or did you
>> modify that amplifier?  Any commercial amplifier sold in the US can
>> have a maximum gain of 15 dB.  Your Expert 1.3K-FA shows 22 dB -
>> nearly 6 dB above the limit.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>>   ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 2015-04-02 10:34 PM, AB2E Darrell wrote:
>>> Hello all,
>>>         I am the proud new owner of a new K3. I am also the proud new
>>> owner of an SPE Expert 1.3K-FA solid state amp, and I have a question
>>> for the group regarding interfacing the K3 to the amp.
>>>
>>> My current setup is using my Icom 756 Pro III with the SPE Expert
>>> 1.3K-FA. The recommended setup for Icom was to connect both the Relay
>>> and ALC cables between the rig and amp. This is because the software
>>> in the amp automatically reduces the power in the rig to the best
>>> output level for the amp (on the amp LOW=500W out= 3W drive, MID=
>>> 1000W out= 6W drive, HIGH = 1500W out = 9W drive). It works
>>> flawlessly. Actually, I could leave the power on the Pro III
>>> untouched, and the amp reduces the power accordingly.
>>>
>>> My question for the group is, is there a way to allow the K3's output
>>> to be controlled by the amp? I see the note on p27 about not using an
>>> amp to control the K3's output, but wonder if there is a safe way to
>>> do it. For instance, could the K3 be set to say 15W out on all bands
>>> via the menu, then allow the amp to control the output via ALC for
>>> optimum drive?
>>>
>>> Any info and comments appreciated.
>>> 73 Darrell AB2E
>>>
>>>      ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>
>
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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Administrator
In reply to this post by Igor Sokolov-2
FCC rules specifically prohibit an easily removed or bypassed input pad for
exceeding the 15 dB gain limit.

Eric
elecraft.com

On 4/2/2015 10:30 PM, Igor Sokolov wrote:

> Joe,
> As I was told, they ship it with the pad at the input to meet FCC requirement
> of  max 15db gain. But the pad can be easily bypassed. Just wonder, what is
> the reason for such a requirement?
>
> 73, Igor UA9CDC
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 7:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp
>
>
>>
>>> This is because the software in the amp automatically reduces the
>>> power in the rig to the best output level for the amp (on the amp
>>> LOW=500W out= 3W drive, MID= 1000W out= 6W drive, HIGH = 1500W out =
>>> 9W drive). It works flawlessly. Actually, I could leave the power on
>>> the Pro III untouched, and the amp reduces the power accordingly.
>>
>> Is SPE shipping amplifiers that violate type acceptance or did you
>> modify that amplifier?  Any commercial amplifier sold in the US can
>> have a maximum gain of 15 dB.  Your Expert 1.3K-FA shows 22 dB -
>> nearly 6 dB above the limit.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>>   ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 2015-04-02 10:34 PM, AB2E Darrell wrote:
>>> Hello all,
>>>         I am the proud new owner of a new K3. I am also the proud new owner
>>> of an SPE Expert 1.3K-FA solid state amp, and I have a question for the
>>> group regarding interfacing the K3 to the amp.
>>>
>>> My current setup is using my Icom 756 Pro III with the SPE Expert 1.3K-FA.
>>> The recommended setup for Icom was to connect both the Relay and ALC cables
>>> between the rig and amp. This is because the software in the amp
>>> automatically reduces the power in the rig to the best output level for the
>>> amp (on the amp LOW=500W out= 3W drive, MID= 1000W out= 6W drive, HIGH =
>>> 1500W out = 9W drive). It works flawlessly. Actually, I could leave the
>>> power on the Pro III untouched, and the amp reduces the power accordingly.
>>>
>>> My question for the group is, is there a way to allow the K3's output to be
>>> controlled by the amp? I see the note on p27 about not using an amp to
>>> control the K3's output, but wonder if there is a safe way to do it. For
>>> instance, could the K3 be set to say 15W out on all bands via the menu, then
>>> allow the amp to control the output via ALC for optimum drive?
>>>
>>> Any info and comments appreciated.
>>> 73 Darrell AB2E
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Oliver Dröse
Luckily not everybody lives in the U.S. and is bound to the FCC
restrictions. :-)

73, Olli - DH8BQA

Contest, DX & radio projects: http://www.dh8bqa.de


Am 03.04.2015 um 22:24 schrieb Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft:

> FCC rules specifically prohibit an easily removed or bypassed input
> pad for exceeding the 15 dB gain limit.
>
> Eric
> elecraft.com
>
> On 4/2/2015 10:30 PM, Igor Sokolov wrote:
>> Joe,
>> As I was told, they ship it with the pad at the input to meet FCC
>> requirement of  max 15db gain. But the pad can be easily bypassed.
>> Just wonder, what is the reason for such a requirement?
>>
>> 73, Igor UA9CDC
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 7:48 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> This is because the software in the amp automatically reduces the
>>>> power in the rig to the best output level for the amp (on the amp
>>>> LOW=500W out= 3W drive, MID= 1000W out= 6W drive, HIGH = 1500W out =
>>>> 9W drive). It works flawlessly. Actually, I could leave the power on
>>>> the Pro III untouched, and the amp reduces the power accordingly.
>>>
>>> Is SPE shipping amplifiers that violate type acceptance or did you
>>> modify that amplifier?  Any commercial amplifier sold in the US can
>>> have a maximum gain of 15 dB.  Your Expert 1.3K-FA shows 22 dB -
>>> nearly 6 dB above the limit.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>>   ... Joe, W4TV
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2015-04-02 10:34 PM, AB2E Darrell wrote:
>>>> Hello all,
>>>>         I am the proud new owner of a new K3. I am also the proud
>>>> new owner of an SPE Expert 1.3K-FA solid state amp, and I have a
>>>> question for the group regarding interfacing the K3 to the amp.
>>>>
>>>> My current setup is using my Icom 756 Pro III with the SPE Expert
>>>> 1.3K-FA. The recommended setup for Icom was to connect both the
>>>> Relay and ALC cables between the rig and amp. This is because the
>>>> software in the amp automatically reduces the power in the rig to
>>>> the best output level for the amp (on the amp LOW=500W out= 3W
>>>> drive, MID= 1000W out= 6W drive, HIGH = 1500W out = 9W drive). It
>>>> works flawlessly. Actually, I could leave the power on the Pro III
>>>> untouched, and the amp reduces the power accordingly.
>>>>
>>>> My question for the group is, is there a way to allow the K3's
>>>> output to be controlled by the amp? I see the note on p27 about not
>>>> using an amp to control the K3's output, but wonder if there is a
>>>> safe way to do it. For instance, could the K3 be set to say 15W out
>>>> on all bands via the menu, then allow the amp to control the output
>>>> via ALC for optimum drive?
>>>>
>>>> Any info and comments appreciated.
>>>> 73 Darrell AB2E
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Oliver Dröse
In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4
 > On a deeper level, to design an amplifier with that much gain is bad
design

Huh? Why is that, Joe? We now have devices capable of 22 or even 30 dB
of clean amplification. Why should we not use it? Just because FCC does
not allow it in the U.S.? I'm not bound to FCC rules and I'd rather
prefer to drive such an amp with 1 or 3 watts from the KX3 to get 1 kW
out than to cascade the transceiver with a driver amp and then a final
amp. Of course I'm just bound to German law which does not contain any
"stupid" (pardon me, but it is!) amplification limits, just the maximum
allowed power. How we generate it is up to us radio amateurs overhere.
That also means responsibility, of course. :-)

Happy Easter!

Vy 73, Olli - DH8BQA
http://www.dh8bqa.de


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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

ha4zd
ARRL may initiate changing that law. Proud hams could drive that change.
With current LDMOS devices lots of money can be saved with one stage
amps. That change would accelerate switching from tube amps to
technically much more advanced LDMOS amps. Less energy consumption,
smaller shack space required. Another question is are there more hams in
USA or CB operators?

73, István ha4zd

On 04/04/2015 00:01, Oliver Dröse wrote:

> > On a deeper level, to design an amplifier with that much gain is bad
> design
>
> Huh? Why is that, Joe? We now have devices capable of 22 or even 30 dB
> of clean amplification. Why should we not use it? Just because FCC
> does not allow it in the U.S.? I'm not bound to FCC rules and I'd
> rather prefer to drive such an amp with 1 or 3 watts from the KX3 to
> get 1 kW out than to cascade the transceiver with a driver amp and
> then a final amp. Of course I'm just bound to German law which does
> not contain any "stupid" (pardon me, but it is!) amplification limits,
> just the maximum allowed power. How we generate it is up to us radio
> amateurs overhere. That also means responsibility, of course. :-)
>
> Happy Easter!
>
> Vy 73, Olli - DH8BQA
> http://www.dh8bqa.de

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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Phil Kane-2
In reply to this post by Oliver Dröse
On 4/3/2015 3:01 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:

> Of course I'm just bound to German law which does not contain any
> "stupid" (pardon me, but it is!) amplification limits, just the maximum
> allowed power. How we generate it is up to us radio amateurs overhere.

It's not "stupid" when you become aware of the history.  At one time
there were no amplification limits.  The problem wasn't with the amateur
community.  The problem was with the renegade CB community that was
using the available high-gain amplifiers improperly and in violation of
US law and with the manufacturers who were catering to them.  The
problems that were created became an enforcement nightmare consuming too
much of the available enforcement resources.  There had to be some
technical limits that we could use as an enforcement benchmark on the
manufacturing level before the devices got into the wrong hands.  I
don't know if the same problems existed in the European ham communities
but it was overwhelming here.

Disclaimer -  I spent three decades on the FCC enforcement staff
directing, inter alia, local CB enforcement including locating, shutting
down, seizing, and forfeiting illegal CB equipment and assessing
monetary forfeiture penalties to the operators, manufacturers, and
dealer.  I know that field quite well.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Joe Subich, W4TV-4
In reply to this post by Oliver Dröse

Oliver,

> We now have devices capable of 22 or even 30 dB of clean
> amplification. Why should we not use it?

Many of the solid state devices that claim 22 dB or more of gain are
*not* clean at maximum output.  That 22 dB specification is based on
saturated power output - often in *pulse* service.  If the manufacturer
actually bothers to provide full gain and IMD curves for the device you
will quite often see the gain drops significantly at maximum drive and
or maximum output power while the "sweet spot" for IMD is 2 to 3 dB
*BELOW* rated (maximum) output for the devices in use.

Using 3 dB of negative feedback, another 3 dB of fixed input padding
and another 1 + 2 dB of switchable input attenuation to provide "ALC"
in the event of overdrive uses the total gain of the devices in a much
more intelligent way.  The high degree of negative feedback and fixed
input padding cause the exciter to see a very constant and resistive
load permitting the exciter to operate at its cleanest.  The negative
feedback also greatly improves IMD generation/linearity in the devices
and by keeping the devices typically below the 1 dB compression point
further minimizes IMD.

100 W to 1500 W (US Legal limit) is only 11.7 dB ... 100 W to 2500 W
(VE legal limit) is only 14.9 dB.  The US type acceptance standard
provides "overhead" in either case (if the amplifier is capable of
2500 W).  I see no reason - unless one *wants* to generate the typical
"dirty Italian" signal that one *needs* 22 or 30 dB of gain.  Most
QRP rigs are so dirty (worse in many cases than an IC-706) I would not
want to see them driving a 1500 W amplifier in any case.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2015-04-03 6:01 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:

>  > On a deeper level, to design an amplifier with that much gain is bad
> design
>
> Huh? Why is that, Joe? We now have devices capable of 22 or even 30 dB
> of clean amplification. Why should we not use it? Just because FCC does
> not allow it in the U.S.? I'm not bound to FCC rules and I'd rather
> prefer to drive such an amp with 1 or 3 watts from the KX3 to get 1 kW
> out than to cascade the transceiver with a driver amp and then a final
> amp. Of course I'm just bound to German law which does not contain any
> "stupid" (pardon me, but it is!) amplification limits, just the maximum
> allowed power. How we generate it is up to us radio amateurs overhere.
> That also means responsibility, of course. :-)
>
> Happy Easter!
>
> Vy 73, Olli - DH8BQA
> http://www.dh8bqa.de
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Elecraft mailing list
In reply to this post by Phil Kane-2
WHY is everyone getting their panties in a wad?!!!!!!
Joe was just being Joe.
His reply had nothing to do with the OP original question.

BTW. ....... The rule states " not to be Sold Commercially "

IF! If the Amp was not bought from a local (USA) Commercial vendor, no harm was done.
He could have obtain it from another Lic Operator. There is no Rule stating he cannot have an SPE Expert 1.3K - FA Amp in his possession.
LIGHTEN up, this is a Hobby.


((((73)))) Milverton / W9MMS.



      From: Phil Kane <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 5:56 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp
   
On 4/3/2015 3:01 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:

> Of course I'm just bound to German law which does not contain any
> "stupid" (pardon me, but it is!) amplification limits, just the maximum
> allowed power. How we generate it is up to us radio amateurs overhere.

It's not "stupid" when you become aware of the history.  At one time
there were no amplification limits.  The problem wasn't with the amateur
community.  The problem was with the renegade CB community that was
using the available high-gain amplifiers improperly and in violation of
US law and with the manufacturers who were catering to them.  The
problems that were created became an enforcement nightmare consuming too
much of the available enforcement resources.  There had to be some
technical limits that we could use as an enforcement benchmark on the
manufacturing level before the devices got into the wrong hands.  I
don't know if the same problems existed in the European ham communities
but it was overwhelming here.

Disclaimer -  I spent three decades on the FCC enforcement staff
directing, inter alia, local CB enforcement including locating, shutting
down, seizing, and forfeiting illegal CB equipment and assessing
monetary forfeiture penalties to the operators, manufacturers, and
dealer.  I know that field quite well.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100  s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon


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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

 > IF! If the Amp was not bought from a local (USA) Commercial vendor,
 > no harm was done.

The op indicated he purchased the amplifier from (one of) the US
distributors for SPE and that others who had purchased amplifiers
from SPE through their US distribution channels reported the same
high gain.

Those amplifiers are *not legal for sale in the USA* - they do not
meet the terms of their type acceptance.  The rules also state that
*nobody* is permitted to modify amplifiers *commercially* (e.g., a
distributor for SPE) so that they are not compliant with the type
acceptance.  An individual amateur may make or modify *for his own*
*use*, at most, *one* of a given model amplifier in any year.

When it comes to playing by the rules, there is no "Joe being Joe"
so back off.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2015-04-03 7:56 PM, Milverton M. Swire via Elecraft wrote:

> WHY is everyone getting their panties in a wad?!!!!!!
> Joe was just being Joe.
> His reply had nothing to do with the OP original question.
>
> BTW. ....... The rule states " not to be Sold Commercially "
>
> IF! If the Amp was not bought from a local (USA) Commercial vendor, no harm was done.
> He could have obtain it from another Lic Operator. There is no Rule stating he cannot have an SPE Expert 1.3K - FA Amp in his possession.
> LIGHTEN up, this is a Hobby.
>
>
> ((((73)))) Milverton / W9MMS.
>
>
>
>        From: Phil Kane <[hidden email]>
>   To: [hidden email]
>   Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 5:56 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp
>
> On 4/3/2015 3:01 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:
>
>> Of course I'm just bound to German law which does not contain any
>> "stupid" (pardon me, but it is!) amplification limits, just the maximum
>> allowed power. How we generate it is up to us radio amateurs overhere.
>
> It's not "stupid" when you become aware of the history.  At one time
> there were no amplification limits.  The problem wasn't with the amateur
> community.  The problem was with the renegade CB community that was
> using the available high-gain amplifiers improperly and in violation of
> US law and with the manufacturers who were catering to them.  The
> problems that were created became an enforcement nightmare consuming too
> much of the available enforcement resources.  There had to be some
> technical limits that we could use as an enforcement benchmark on the
> manufacturing level before the devices got into the wrong hands.  I
> don't know if the same problems existed in the European ham communities
> but it was overwhelming here.
>
> Disclaimer -  I spent three decades on the FCC enforcement staff
> directing, inter alia, local CB enforcement including locating, shutting
> down, seizing, and forfeiting illegal CB equipment and assessing
> monetary forfeiture penalties to the operators, manufacturers, and
> dealer.  I know that field quite well.
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> Elecraft K2/100  s/n 5402
>
>  From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Administrator
In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4
Folks - Let's not get into an argument over amp gain.

We're currently restricted by FCC rules (thought I hope that eventually goes away..)

Let's let the thread rest for now in the interest of limiting list traffic
overload for others.

73 and have a great weekend!

Eric
elecraft.com

On 4/3/2015 4:53 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
> Oliver,
>
>> We now have devices capable of 22 or even 30 dB of clean
>> amplification. Why should we not use it?
>
> Many of the solid state devices that claim 22 dB or more of gain are
> *not* clean at maximum output.  That 22 dB specification is based on

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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Elecraft mailing list
In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Quote " I am the proud new owner of a new K3. I am also the proud new owner of an SPE Expert 1.3K-FA solid state amp " end of Quote!
Please  NOTE " New Owner "  not " The Owner of a NEW " The Op was very CLEAR.
JUDGEMENT was passed !
I rest my case.

((((73)))) Milverton / W9MMS

      From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 7:09 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp
   

 > IF! If the Amp was not bought from a local (USA) Commercial vendor,
 > no harm was done.

The op indicated he purchased the amplifier from (one of) the US
distributors for SPE and that others who had purchased amplifiers
from SPE through their US distribution channels reported the same
high gain.

Those amplifiers are *not legal for sale in the USA* - they do not
meet the terms of their type acceptance.  The rules also state that
*nobody* is permitted to modify amplifiers *commercially* (e.g., a
distributor for SPE) so that they are not compliant with the type
acceptance.  An individual amateur may make or modify *for his own*
*use*, at most, *one* of a given model amplifier in any year.

When it comes to playing by the rules, there is no "Joe being Joe"
so back off.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 2015-04-03 7:56 PM, Milverton M. Swire via Elecraft wrote:

> WHY is everyone getting their panties in a wad?!!!!!!
> Joe was just being Joe.
> His reply had nothing to do with the OP original question.
>
> BTW. ....... The rule states " not to be Sold Commercially "
>
> IF! If the Amp was not bought from a local (USA) Commercial vendor, no harm was done.
> He could have obtain it from another Lic Operator. There is no Rule stating he cannot have an SPE Expert 1.3K - FA Amp in his possession.
> LIGHTEN up, this is a Hobby.
>
>
> ((((73)))) Milverton / W9MMS.
>
>
>
>        From: Phil Kane <[hidden email]>
>  To: [hidden email]
>  Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 5:56 PM
>  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp
>
> On 4/3/2015 3:01 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:
>
>> Of course I'm just bound to German law which does not contain any
>> "stupid" (pardon me, but it is!) amplification limits, just the maximum
>> allowed power. How we generate it is up to us radio amateurs overhere.
>
> It's not "stupid" when you become aware of the history.  At one time
> there were no amplification limits.  The problem wasn't with the amateur
> community.  The problem was with the renegade CB community that was
> using the available high-gain amplifiers improperly and in violation of
> US law and with the manufacturers who were catering to them.  The
> problems that were created became an enforcement nightmare consuming too
> much of the available enforcement resources.  There had to be some
> technical limits that we could use as an enforcement benchmark on the
> manufacturing level before the devices got into the wrong hands.  I
> don't know if the same problems existed in the European ham communities
> but it was overwhelming here.
>
> Disclaimer -  I spent three decades on the FCC enforcement staff
> directing, inter alia, local CB enforcement including locating, shutting
> down, seizing, and forfeiting illegal CB equipment and assessing
> monetary forfeiture penalties to the operators, manufacturers, and
> dealer.  I know that field quite well.
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> Elecraft K2/100  s/n 5402
>
>  From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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Re: Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

 > not " The Owner of a NEW "

Since the SPE Expert 1.3K-FA is a brand new amplifier which only
received type acceptance recently, "Owner of a NEW" applies.

The op admitted that to me in a separate - off list - e-mail that
included performance data on other 1.3K-FA amplifiers specifically
as well as a previous Expert 1K-FA.

The issue is that SPE are importing amplifiers that do not meet
the type acceptance requirements (are not the same as represented
by the data filed for type acceptance) .  I challenge the FCC to
do something about it - to sanction both SPE and SPE's distributors
in the US.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2015-04-03 8:34 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

>
> Quote " I am the proud new owner of a new K3. I am also the proud new owner of an SPE Expert 1.3K-FA solid state amp " end of Quote!
> Please  NOTE " New Owner "  not " The Owner of a NEW " The Op was very CLEAR.
> JUDGEMENT was passed !
> I rest my case.
>
> ((((73)))) Milverton / W9MMS
>
>        From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
>   To: [hidden email]
>   Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 7:09 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp
>
>
>   > IF! If the Amp was not bought from a local (USA) Commercial vendor,
>   > no harm was done.
>
> The op indicated he purchased the amplifier from (one of) the US
> distributors for SPE and that others who had purchased amplifiers
> from SPE through their US distribution channels reported the same
> high gain.
>
> Those amplifiers are *not legal for sale in the USA* - they do not
> meet the terms of their type acceptance.  The rules also state that
> *nobody* is permitted to modify amplifiers *commercially* (e.g., a
> distributor for SPE) so that they are not compliant with the type
> acceptance.  An individual amateur may make or modify *for his own*
> *use*, at most, *one* of a given model amplifier in any year.
>
> When it comes to playing by the rules, there is no "Joe being Joe"
> so back off.
>
> 73,
>
>    ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2015-04-03 7:56 PM, Milverton M. Swire via Elecraft wrote:
>> WHY is everyone getting their panties in a wad?!!!!!!
>> Joe was just being Joe.
>> His reply had nothing to do with the OP original question.
>>
>> BTW. ....... The rule states " not to be Sold Commercially "
>>
>> IF! If the Amp was not bought from a local (USA) Commercial vendor, no harm was done.
>> He could have obtain it from another Lic Operator. There is no Rule stating he cannot have an SPE Expert 1.3K - FA Amp in his possession.
>> LIGHTEN up, this is a Hobby.
>>
>>
>> ((((73)))) Milverton / W9MMS.
>>
>>
>>
>>          From: Phil Kane <[hidden email]>
>>    To: [hidden email]
>>    Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 5:56 PM
>>    Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Question K3 ALC w/SPE Expert 1.3K-FA amp
>>
>> On 4/3/2015 3:01 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:
>>
>>> Of course I'm just bound to German law which does not contain any
>>> "stupid" (pardon me, but it is!) amplification limits, just the maximum
>>> allowed power. How we generate it is up to us radio amateurs overhere.
>>
>> It's not "stupid" when you become aware of the history.  At one time
>> there were no amplification limits.  The problem wasn't with the amateur
>> community.  The problem was with the renegade CB community that was
>> using the available high-gain amplifiers improperly and in violation of
>> US law and with the manufacturers who were catering to them.  The
>> problems that were created became an enforcement nightmare consuming too
>> much of the available enforcement resources.  There had to be some
>> technical limits that we could use as an enforcement benchmark on the
>> manufacturing level before the devices got into the wrong hands.  I
>> don't know if the same problems existed in the European ham communities
>> but it was overwhelming here.
>>
>> Disclaimer -  I spent three decades on the FCC enforcement staff
>> directing, inter alia, local CB enforcement including locating, shutting
>> down, seizing, and forfeiting illegal CB equipment and assessing
>> monetary forfeiture penalties to the operators, manufacturers, and
>> dealer.  I know that field quite well.
>>
>> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
>> Elecraft K2/100  s/n 5402
>>
>>    From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
>> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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>
>
>
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