RFI on K3s

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RFI on K3s

Clay Autery
I am seeing a repetitive RFI source every 34kHz from somewhere less than
20MHz thru 30MHz plus...

See attached image.  The amplitude alternates high/low every other
appearance.  The overall amplitude is higher or lower depending on the
location within the spectrum....  Almost a sine wave function with a
VERY long period.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what is causing it?  I disco'd every
switch-mode power supply in the shack and adjacent rooms (couldn't do
the whole house as the XYL was home).... EXCEPT my Powerwerx SS-30DV PS
running the K3s/P3.

Don't have a battery to run the radio on right now...



--
______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

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Re: RFI on K3s

Clay Autery
No images in reflector posts...

Here's the link to the RFI I'm seeing on the P3 in 160 kHz of the 10+MHz
bandwidth I checked.

http://montac.com/images/shack/34kHz_RFI_-20MHz_to_30MHz_plus.jpg

Original post below:

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 6/19/2016 11:55 PM, Clay Autery wrote:

> I am seeing a repetitive RFI source every 34kHz from somewhere less than
> 20MHz thru 30MHz plus...
>
> See attached image.  The amplitude alternates high/low every other
> appearance.  The overall amplitude is higher or lower depending on the
> location within the spectrum....  Almost a sine wave function with a
> VERY long period.
>
> Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what is causing it?  I disco'd every
> switch-mode power supply in the shack and adjacent rooms (couldn't do
> the whole house as the XYL was home).... EXCEPT my Powerwerx SS-30DV PS
> running the K3s/P3.
>
> Don't have a battery to run the radio on right now...
>
>
>

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Re: RFI on K3s

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by Clay Autery
On Sun,6/19/2016 9:55 PM, Clay Autery wrote:
> Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what is causing it?  I disco'd every
> switch-mode power supply in the shack and adjacent rooms (couldn't do
> the whole house as the XYL was home).... EXCEPT my Powerwerx SS-30DV PS
> running the K3s/P3.

Digital circuitry or SMPS are the most likely cause. See my latest
tutorial, linked below, to learn how to tell which is which. 34 kHz
suggests a 17 kHz square wave.

http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: RFI on K3s

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by Clay Autery
On Sun,6/19/2016 10:02 PM, Clay Autery wrote:
> http://montac.com/images/shack/34kHz_RFI_-20MHz_to_30MHz_plus.jpg

The traces drifting in frequency and modulated by noise tells us it's a
switching power supply.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: RFI on K3s

Clay Autery
That's what I figured... Now to locate which one of the 50+ that are
present in this house alone...

They actually appear all the way down into the 14MHz range...  Always
there.  Tonight they were relatively stable in location... drifting
slowly, and even changed directions once.  At other times, the cyclical
migration up or down the band is faster and sometimes random, switching
directions repetitively and without discernible (to me) pattern.

Off to read...  Hopefully it is not the power supply I use for the K3s/P3...


73,

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 6/20/2016 12:06 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On Sun,6/19/2016 10:02 PM, Clay Autery wrote:
>> http://montac.com/images/shack/34kHz_RFI_-20MHz_to_30MHz_plus.jpg
>
> The traces drifting in frequency and modulated by noise tells us it's
> a switching power supply.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

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Re: RFI on K3s

NK7Z
On Mon, 2016-06-20 at 00:38 -0500, Clay Autery wrote:

> That's what I figured... Now to locate which one of the 50+ that are
> present in this house alone...
>
> They actually appear all the way down into the 14MHz range...  Always
> there.  Tonight they were relatively stable in location... drifting
> slowly, and even changed directions once.  At other times, the
> cyclical migration up or down the band is faster and sometimes random,
> switching directions repetitively and without discernible (to me)
> pattern.

Sometimes you can "get a feeling", where they are located by watching
the timing...  Do they drift in the morning, and after sunset, if so,
the SMPS might be outside, on in a non temperature controlled area, if
not it might be inside...  

Do they happen at set intervals?  Time to do the power off test to your
home and see if they go away...  If you are lucky they will...

If they do, bring the house up one breaker at a time, looking for the
RFI to start...  If not, then set up S-Meter Lite, look for patterns,
then after a week or so of recording what is happening, take out a loop
and start looking for it...

--

73's, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
For software/hardware reviews see:
http://www.nk7z.net

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Re: RFI on K3s

NK7Z
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
On Sun, 2016-06-19 at 22:05 -0700, Jim Brown wrote:
> Digital circuitry or SMPS are the most likely cause. See my latest 
> tutorial, linked below, to learn how to tell which is which. 34 kHz 
> suggests a 17 kHz square wave.
>
> http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

Jim,
The last page says it is page 17 of 19...  What's on the last 2 pages?

BTW, nice job on the new paper on RFI!
-- 

73's, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
For software/hardware reviews see:
http://www.nk7z.net
--

73's, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
For software/hardware reviews see:
http://www.nk7z.net

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Re: RFI on K3s

Drew AF2Z
In reply to this post by Clay Autery
I have a Powerwerx SS-30DV also. I think it is unlikely that this PS
would put out that kind of trash. I've found it to be very quiet even
listening with an endfed wire antenna within inches of it.

73,
Drew
AF2Z


On 06/20/16 01:38, Clay Autery wrote:

> That's what I figured... Now to locate which one of the 50+ that are
> present in this house alone...
>
> They actually appear all the way down into the 14MHz range...  Always
> there.  Tonight they were relatively stable in location... drifting
> slowly, and even changed directions once.  At other times, the cyclical
> migration up or down the band is faster and sometimes random, switching
> directions repetitively and without discernible (to me) pattern.
>
> Off to read...  Hopefully it is not the power supply I use for the K3s/P3...
>
>
> 73,
>
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389
>

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Re: RFI on K3s

Elecraft mailing list
My PowerWerx supply DOES generate those drifting noise spikes, ruining CW on 80 meters for me.  I have yet to find a 13.8 volt switching supply that can provide 25 quiet amps.  I've gone entirely to batteries rather than use quiet but inefficient linear supplies.

 Now I only have SMPS noise when recharging the batteries.  So I leave that for non-hamming hours.  More testing is needed, but I did find one SMPS for LiFePO4 batteries that seemed RFI free.  It's an Optimate brand product but only produces 5 amps.
--
Marc  WW8SDG

> On Jun 20, 2016, at 7:45 AM, Drew AF2Z <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have a Powerwerx SS-30DV also. I think it is unlikely that this PS would put out that kind of trash. I've found it to be very quiet even listening with an endfed wire antenna within inches of it.
>
> 73,
> Drew
> AF2Z
>
>
>> On 06/20/16 01:38, Clay Autery wrote:
>> That's what I figured... Now to locate which one of the 50+ that are
>> present in this house alone...
>>
>> They actually appear all the way down into the 14MHz range...  Always
>> there.  Tonight they were relatively stable in location... drifting
>> slowly, and even changed directions once.  At other times, the cyclical
>> migration up or down the band is faster and sometimes random, switching
>> directions repetitively and without discernible (to me) pattern.
>>
>> Off to read...  Hopefully it is not the power supply I use for the K3s/P3...
>>
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ______________________
>> Clay Autery, KY5G
>> MONTAC Enterprises
>> (318) 518-1389
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Re: RFI on K3s

Drew AF2Z
I do also have multiple turns of the p/s power cord wound through a
large toroid, just for good measure. I investigated the Powerwerx at one
time when I was having some RFI problems, comparing it side by side with
a linear supply, and just didn't find the ss-30dv to be a problem. My
main problem was the DSL modem, and perhaps copper phone lines, now
eliminated by Fios internet.

73,
Drew
AF2Z



On 06/20/16 07:59, Marc Veeneman wrote:
> My PowerWerx supply DOES generate those drifting noise spikes, ruining CW on 80 meters for me.  I have yet to find a 13.8 volt switching supply that can provide 25 quiet amps.  I've gone entirely to batteries rather than use quiet but inefficient linear supplies.
>
>   Now I only have SMPS noise when recharging the batteries.  So I leave that for non-hamming hours.  More testing is needed, but I did find one SMPS for LiFePO4 batteries that seemed RFI free.  It's an Optimate brand product but only produces 5 amps.


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Re: RFI on K3s

N1VH
In reply to this post by Clay Autery
I had the same issue.  It was caused by my Powerwerx SS-30DV.   After trying a number of things to mitigate the noise, I ended up replacing the power supply with a Samlex SEC 1235M.  Noise gone.  Problem solved.

Marty - K1MTK


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Message: 20
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:55:59 -0500
From: Clay Autery <[hidden email]>
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I am seeing a repetitive RFI source every 34kHz from somewhere less than
20MHz thru 30MHz plus...

See attached image.  The amplitude alternates high/low every other
appearance.  The overall amplitude is higher or lower depending on the
location within the spectrum....  Almost a sine wave function with a
VERY long period.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what is causing it?  I disco'd every
switch-mode power supply in the shack and adjacent rooms (couldn't do
the whole house as the XYL was home).... EXCEPT my Powerwerx SS-30DV PS
running the K3s/P3.

Don't have a battery to run the radio on right now...



--
______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389



-
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RFI on K3s

Elecraft mailing list
Is the Powerwerx SS-30DV currently sold in the elecraft order page?
73
Johnny VR2XMC

      寄件人︰ Marty Koszewski <[hidden email]>
 收件人︰ "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
 傳送日期︰ 2016年06月20日 (週一) 9:17 PM
 主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s
   
I had the same issue.  It was caused by my Powerwerx SS-30DV.  After trying a number of things to mitigate the noise, I ended up replacing the power supply with a Samlex SEC 1235M.  Noise gone.  Problem solved.

Marty - K1MTK


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Message: 20
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:55:59 -0500
From: Clay Autery <[hidden email]>
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I am seeing a repetitive RFI source every 34kHz from somewhere less than
20MHz thru 30MHz plus...

See attached image.  The amplitude alternates high/low every other
appearance.  The overall amplitude is higher or lower depending on the
location within the spectrum....  Almost a sine wave function with a
VERY long period.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what is causing it?  I disco'd every
switch-mode power supply in the shack and adjacent rooms (couldn't do
the whole house as the XYL was home).... EXCEPT my Powerwerx SS-30DV PS
running the K3s/P3.

Don't have a battery to run the radio on right now...



--
______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389



-
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Re: RFI on K3s

K9MA
In reply to this post by N1VH
I've also used that Samlex supply, with no sign of RFI.

Scott. K9MA

----------

Scott Ellington

 --- via iPad

> On Jun 20, 2016, at 8:17 AM, Marty Koszewski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I had the same issue.  It was caused by my Powerwerx SS-30DV.   After trying a number of things to mitigate the noise, I ended up replacing the power supply with a Samlex SEC 1235M.  Noise gone.  Problem solved.
>
> Marty - K1MTK
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:55:59 -0500
> From: Clay Autery <[hidden email]>
> To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> I am seeing a repetitive RFI source every 34kHz from somewhere less than
> 20MHz thru 30MHz plus...
>
> See attached image.  The amplitude alternates high/low every other
> appearance.  The overall amplitude is higher or lower depending on the
> location within the spectrum....  Almost a sine wave function with a
> VERY long period.
>
> Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what is causing it?  I disco'd every
> switch-mode power supply in the shack and adjacent rooms (couldn't do
> the whole house as the XYL was home).... EXCEPT my Powerwerx SS-30DV PS
> running the K3s/P3.
>
> Don't have a battery to run the radio on right now...
>
>
>
> --
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389
>
>
>
> -
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Re: RFI on K3s

Clay Autery
In reply to this post by NK7Z
On 6/20/2016 5:28 AM, Dave Cole wrote:

> Sometimes you can "get a feeling", where they are located by watching
> the timing...  Do they drift in the morning, and after sunset, if so,
> the SMPS might be outside, on in a non temperature controlled area, if
> not it might be inside...  
>
> Do they happen at set intervals?  Time to do the power off test to your
> home and see if they go away...  If you are lucky they will...
>
> If they do, bring the house up one breaker at a time, looking for the
> RFI to start...  If not, then set up S-Meter Lite, look for patterns,
> then after a week or so of recording what is happening, take out a loop
> and start looking for it...
Thank you...  I think I will TRACK when they are stable vs. drifting...
First, I need to find a good battery and QUIET float charger for the K3/P3.

Lot of info in short reply.  S-Meter Lite...  Thanks!  Got it now.
Need to research/build the loop(s).

73,

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389


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Re: RFI on K3s

Clay Autery
In reply to this post by Drew AF2Z
I certainly hope you are correct.  I love this little power supply.  It
keeps my K3s/P3 smack dab on 13.8 RX and no lower than 13.5 on TX@100W.
But it will be check #1.  Learned a long time ago not to make
assumptions or NOT eliminate variables (when possible).

73,

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 6/20/2016 6:45 AM, Drew AF2Z wrote:
> I have a Powerwerx SS-30DV also. I think it is unlikely that this PS
> would put out that kind of trash. I've found it to be very quiet even
> listening with an endfed wire antenna within inches of it.
>
> 73,
> Drew
> AF2Z
>

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Re: RFI on K3s

David Ahrendts
In reply to this post by Clay Autery
Gents, that’s my setup also with K3S #10125, and I’m convinced the Powerwerx SS-30DV is a stable, quiet, top-notch amp recommended by the fine people a Elecraft (it’s what they use on the road). However, thanks to some great advice from people here, I have eliminated the black-red zip cable from all uses in my station. Zip line, or for that matter, any parallel cable, like monster speaker cable, is highly susceptible to RFI. This was a lesson from the early days of stringing telephone cable. The solution: twisted pairs, and even better in 2016, shielded twisted pairs. So every power cable has been replaced in my station with shielded twisted pairs, further protected with ferrite snap-on beads. Even further, I’ve eliminated every switching power supply nearby. It has helped immensely.  
That said, some of those pesky slowly drifting S9+ noise bumps still live!

David A., KK6DA, Los Angeles



I certainly hope you are correct.  I love this little power supply.  It
keeps my K3s/P3 smack dab on 13.8 RX and no lower than 13.5 on TX@100W.
But it will be check #1.  Learned a long time ago not to make
assumptions or NOT eliminate variables (when possible).

73,

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 6/20/2016 6:45 AM, Drew AF2Z wrote:
> I have a Powerwerx SS-30DV also. I think it is unlikely that this PS
> would put out that kind of trash. I've found it to be very quiet even
> listening with an endfed wire antenna within inches of it.
>
> 73,
> Drew
> AF2Z



> On Jun 20, 2016, at 8:15 AM, Clay Autery <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 6/20/2016 5:28 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
>> Sometimes you can "get a feeling", where they are located by watching
>> the timing...  Do they drift in the morning, and after sunset, if so,
>> the SMPS might be outside, on in a non temperature controlled area, if
>> not it might be inside...  
>>
>> Do they happen at set intervals?  Time to do the power off test to your
>> home and see if they go away...  If you are lucky they will...
>>
>> If they do, bring the house up one breaker at a time, looking for the
>> RFI to start...  If not, then set up S-Meter Lite, look for patterns,
>> then after a week or so of recording what is happening, take out a loop
>> and start looking for it...
> Thank you...  I think I will TRACK when they are stable vs. drifting...
> First, I need to find a good battery and QUIET float charger for the K3/P3.
>
> Lot of info in short reply.  S-Meter Lite...  Thanks!  Got it now.
> Need to research/build the loop(s).
>
> 73,
>
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389




David Ahrendts   [hidden email]  




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Re: RFI on K3s

Elecraft mailing list
In reply to this post by Clay Autery
Cant help thinking, that the charge to discharge "Efficiency" is probably no better than a good linear PSU, but you do I guess get the "Off grid" option for EMCOM work..

There ARE (RF)quiet SMPS's out there, but not priced in a way that will suit the average Ham's budget.   You get what you pay for.  Oh, and they tend to be large too, due to the filtering.

Quite honestly, for "Amateur" work, where the rig will usually spend most of it's life in RX, a linear PSU is just fine.   Plus, you can fix them when things fail.   Try that with a modern well suppresed QRO SMPS!..

73.

Dave G0WBX.


~~~ Original message.

From: Marc Veeneman<[hidden email]>
To:[hidden email]
Cc:[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI on K3s
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My PowerWerx supply DOES generate those drifting noise spikes, ruining CW on 80 meters for me.  I have yet to find a 13.8 volt switching supply that can provide 25 quiet amps.  I've gone entirely to batteries rather than use quiet but inefficient linear supplies.

  Now I only have SMPS noise when recharging the batteries.  So I leave that for non-hamming hours.  More testing is needed, but I did find one SMPS for LiFePO4 batteries that seemed RFI free.  It's an Optimate brand product but only produces 5 amps.


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Re: RFI on K3s

Clay Autery
In reply to this post by Drew AF2Z
Marc and Drew,

Appreciate the feedback... Checking my PS is my first test.  Will power
off all circuits except the one to my shack that runs the AC to the PS.
Then I'll A/B with radio on battery and on the PS.  (PS
air-gapped/unplugged when on batt).
If it is the PS, I'll try to choke the I/O power leads first before
doing anything else.

I've a strong feeling it is NOT the SS-30DV...  My antenna is an 80m
loop outside at 38-40 feet.  Fed with 300 ladder to the 6:1 balun.  Only
15-20 feet of coax total (LMR240-DB with N-Connectors) direct from balun
to radio.

Before I do anything beyond IDing culprits, I have to address other
shortcomings first:  1) Insufficient service ground, 2) no shack ground,
3) no bond from non-existent shack ground to service ground.  :(
Knew I should have done those things BEFORE I went OTA...  the mic/K3 is
a huge distraction from my TO DO list.  ;)

73,

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 6/20/2016 7:45 AM, Drew AF2Z wrote:

> I do also have multiple turns of the p/s power cord wound through a
> large toroid, just for good measure. I investigated the Powerwerx at
> one time when I was having some RFI problems, comparing it side by
> side with a linear supply, and just didn't find the ss-30dv to be a
> problem. My main problem was the DSL modem, and perhaps copper phone
> lines, now eliminated by Fios internet.
>
> 73,
> Drew
> AF2Z
>
>
>
> On 06/20/16 07:59, Marc Veeneman wrote:
>> My PowerWerx supply DOES generate those drifting noise spikes,
>> ruining CW on 80 meters for me.  I have yet to find a 13.8 volt
>> switching supply that can provide 25 quiet amps.  I've gone entirely
>> to batteries rather than use quiet but inefficient linear supplies.
>>
>>   Now I only have SMPS noise when recharging the batteries.  So I
>> leave that for non-hamming hours.  More testing is needed, but I did
>> find one SMPS for LiFePO4 batteries that seemed RFI free.  It's an
>> Optimate brand product but only produces 5 amps.

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Re: RFI on K3s

Jim Brown-10
In reply to this post by NK7Z
On Mon,6/20/2016 3:46 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
> The last page says it is page 17 of 19...  What's on the last 2 pages?
Last two pages is stuff I deleted. :)
>
> BTW, nice job on the new paper on RFI!

  Thanks!

73, Jim


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Re: RFI on K3s

Drew AF2Z
In reply to this post by Clay Autery
FWIW, the ss-30dv that Elecraft sells is listed at 14.1 VDC. Older units
sold elsewhere were listed at lower output voltage but you can adjust an
internal pot to bring them up to 14.1.

73,
Drew
AF2Z


On 06/20/16 11:30, Clay Autery wrote:

> I certainly hope you are correct.  I love this little power supply.  It
> keeps my K3s/P3 smack dab on 13.8 RX and no lower than 13.5 on TX@100W.
> But it will be check #1.  Learned a long time ago not to make
> assumptions or NOT eliminate variables (when possible).
>
> 73,
>
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389
>
>


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