Re: [K3] K3 Off Grid

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Re: [K3] K3 Off Grid

Frank R. Oppedijk-3
> My K3, on receive, with the KAT500 in-line, the P3, and my massive 70A Astron p.s. powering the K3, drew about 20A DC.  Putting the K3 in transmit mode, with just under 12W drive (so as not to kick in the 100w amp) required about 30A DC.  Boosting the output to 50W drew about 70A DC.  Running it "wide open," at 100W out, required about 80A DC.  And finally, turning on the KPA-500, with 15W drive to yield 300W out, required 150A DC.

I haven't made any measurements myself, but I do believe there must be some error in your numbers. If RX draws 20A and TX at 100W draws 80A, that means 60A x 12V = 720W input power to create 100W RF output. The other 620W must be dissipated into heat, which, I guess, would melt the K3 over time :) There clearly must be an error somewhere.

Also, 20A on RX seems way too high for me. The K3 by itself draws 2A on RX, IIRC. Add an extra 1A for the P3 and the KAT500 maybe, and we're still missing 17A.

Was your measurement device faulty, or do you have an error in your maths?

73 de Frank PA4N

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Re: [K3] K3 Off Grid

Paul Grigorieff-2
Hmmm.  Thanks for the comments. It may be that the amperage indicator on my
new main line surge protector is faulty.  I will try again, this time using
a Kill-A-Watt power consumption meter on my various power strips and adding
up the readings of power drawn.  More news as it happens...
  -Paul, N1HEL
_________________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank R. Oppedijk" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid


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Re: [K3] K3 Off Grid

Cookie
Paul, I have been wondering where you got your information.  It now sounds like you have been using peak currents that are designed to prove to you that you need the surge protector equipment rather than any kind of metering to predict battery life or any other type of average current or electric meter charges.  Such surges are common with power supplies with large capacitance that are turned off then on and the capacitors charge.  These have to do only with the internal resistance in the power supply and the resistance of the electrical lines and nothing to do with your battery requirements.  Your battery capacity, I would estimate to be the receive current x the required operation time x the average power x 2 x transmit duty.  Receive current should be about 0.5 amps for the K2, 1.0 for the K3 with one receiver and 2.0 with two receivers.  The average power should be about 0.3 X peak power for CW and a bit less for SB.  The duty cycle should be
 about 0.7 for a contest station calling CQ down to almost nothing for a station mostly listening to a net.  The efficiency for a battery would be best predicted by manufacturer's data, but should be high for a reasonable sized battery.  A 60 amp-hour battery is fairly small.  My station battery is rated at 122 amp hours.  A contest station calling CQ for 48 hours with a K3 using two receivers and transmitting at 100 watts should require a battery capable of 48 hours x 2 amps +48 X (100 watts/12v) x 0.7 x 0.3 = 180 amp hours or two fully charged batteries.  Of course, you would want a big amplifier, a computer, some lights and a refrigerator for food and drink, so the K3 will be the least of your worry.  If you use an ice chest and an LED light and hunt and pounce a single well charged battery should handle a CQ WW unless you want a rotary beam or an amp.  You will note that you can cut your battery requirement in half with only one receiver in
 your K3.  This estimate makes a lot of reasonable assumptions, so it would require some empirical data to be very accurate, but it shows that operating on a weekend camping trip is very reasonable because you are unlikely to call CQ all night, particularly if your XYL is along to dictate some of your activity.
 
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart


________________________________
 From: Paul (N1HEL) <[hidden email]>
To: Frank R. Oppedijk <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid
 

Hmmm.  Thanks for the comments. It may be that the amperage indicator on my new main line surge protector is faulty.  I will try again, this time using a Kill-A-Watt power consumption meter on my various power strips and adding up the readings of power drawn.  More news as it happens...
-Paul, N1HEL
_________________________________

----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank R. Oppedijk" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid


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Re: [K3] K3 Off Grid

Paul Grigorieff-2
In reply to this post by Frank R. Oppedijk-3
OK, here are some new readings, taken with a Kill-A-Watt power consumption
meter.  The readings in transmit mode were taken by keying down in CW for a
few seconds and waiting until the meter reading stabilized.

I have an Astron 70A power supply powering a Rigrunner that then supplies a
K3, a KAT500, and a PigKnob.  The P3 is plugged into the K3.  There is a
set of speakers, which draw .06A AC as well.

K3 in RCV mode               .92A AC, or 84W       6 DC  at  14v
K3 in XMIT, 15W out          2.7A AC, or 240W    17A DC    "
K3 in XMIT, 50W out          3.7A AC, or 342W    24A DC    "
K3 in XMIT, 100W out        4.7A AC, or 438W    31A DC    "

How do these look to everyone?  I'd like to get them close to right so that
I can calculate my battery needs for emergency operation.

Something else I don't understand is the ammeter on the front of the
Astron.  When the K3 is turned on,  the Astron's meter jumps up about 1A
DC.  When the K3 is transmitting at 15W, the Astron's meter reads about 7A
DC.  At 50W transmitted power, it reads 11A DC. And at 100W out, it reads
15A DC.  Quite a difference from the measured and computed DC amps listed
above.  What is going on here?  Simply an innaccurate Astron meter?

Thanks,
   -Paul, N1HEL




On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 2:06 AM, Frank R. Oppedijk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > My K3, on receive, with the KAT500 in-line, the P3, and my massive 70A
> Astron p.s. powering the K3, drew about 20A DC.  Putting the K3 in transmit
> mode, with just under 12W drive (so as not to kick in the 100w amp)
> required about 30A DC.  Boosting the output to 50W drew about 70A DC.
>  Running it "wide open," at 100W out, required about 80A DC.  And finally,
> turning on the KPA-500, with 15W drive to yield 300W out, required 150A DC.
>
> I haven't made any measurements myself, but I do believe there must be
> some error in your numbers. If RX draws 20A and TX at 100W draws 80A, that
> means 60A x 12V = 720W input power to create 100W RF output. The other 620W
> must be dissipated into heat, which, I guess, would melt the K3 over time
> :) There clearly must be an error somewhere.
>
> Also, 20A on RX seems way too high for me. The K3 by itself draws 2A on
> RX, IIRC. Add an extra 1A for the P3 and the KAT500 maybe, and we're still
> missing 17A.
>
> Was your measurement device faulty, or do you have an error in your maths?
>
> 73 de Frank PA4N
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>



--
Paul
N1HEL
Half Moon Bay, CA
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Re: [K3] K3 Off Grid

ve3dvy
The current readings on the Killowat are showing AC into the power supply.     losses in the Astron there and with additional  loads it will be drawing more power than the K3 alone.     The other question is the Killowatt reading peak currents or RMS.        In a perfect world with a 100 percent efficient power supply connected to a K3 drawing 15A at 13.8V.     The power supply will draw 1.7A. At 120 V ac.    But even the best power supplies especially analogue  are far from 100 percent efficient.  So your readings are reasonable   onto that, and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, the K3 will draw somewhat more than 15A. Key down at 100W  so the am meter on the Astron may be reading a little low.
Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.
Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell.

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Grigorieff <[hidden email]>
Sender: [hidden email]
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:16:23
To: Frank R. Oppedijk<[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid

OK, here are some new readings, taken with a Kill-A-Watt power consumption
meter.  The readings in transmit mode were taken by keying down in CW for a
few seconds and waiting until the meter reading stabilized.

I have an Astron 70A power supply powering a Rigrunner that then supplies a
K3, a KAT500, and a PigKnob.  The P3 is plugged into the K3.  There is a
set of speakers, which draw .06A AC as well.

K3 in RCV mode               .92A AC, or 84W       6 DC  at  14v
K3 in XMIT, 15W out          2.7A AC, or 240W    17A DC    "
K3 in XMIT, 50W out          3.7A AC, or 342W    24A DC    "
K3 in XMIT, 100W out        4.7A AC, or 438W    31A DC    "

How do these look to everyone?  I'd like to get them close to right so that
I can calculate my battery needs for emergency operation.

Something else I don't understand is the ammeter on the front of the
Astron.  When the K3 is turned on,  the Astron's meter jumps up about 1A
DC.  When the K3 is transmitting at 15W, the Astron's meter reads about 7A
DC.  At 50W transmitted power, it reads 11A DC. And at 100W out, it reads
15A DC.  Quite a difference from the measured and computed DC amps listed
above.  What is going on here?  Simply an innaccurate Astron meter?

Thanks,
   -Paul, N1HEL




On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 2:06 AM, Frank R. Oppedijk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > My K3, on receive, with the KAT500 in-line, the P3, and my massive 70A
> Astron p.s. powering the K3, drew about 20A DC.  Putting the K3 in transmit
> mode, with just under 12W drive (so as not to kick in the 100w amp)
> required about 30A DC.  Boosting the output to 50W drew about 70A DC.
>  Running it "wide open," at 100W out, required about 80A DC.  And finally,
> turning on the KPA-500, with 15W drive to yield 300W out, required 150A DC.
>
> I haven't made any measurements myself, but I do believe there must be
> some error in your numbers. If RX draws 20A and TX at 100W draws 80A, that
> means 60A x 12V = 720W input power to create 100W RF output. The other 620W
> must be dissipated into heat, which, I guess, would melt the K3 over time
> :) There clearly must be an error somewhere.
>
> Also, 20A on RX seems way too high for me. The K3 by itself draws 2A on
> RX, IIRC. Add an extra 1A for the P3 and the KAT500 maybe, and we're still
> missing 17A.
>
> Was your measurement device faulty, or do you have an error in your maths?
>
> 73 de Frank PA4N
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>



--
Paul
N1HEL
Half Moon Bay, CA
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Re: [K3] K3 Off Grid

Bill Frantz
In reply to this post by Paul Grigorieff-2
I think measurements using this protocol will include the losses
in the Mains Voltage to 12 Volt power supply. If you are running
off batteries, then you have 12 volts already and don't suffer
any conversion losses.

Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

On 3/5/14 at 6:43 AM, [hidden email] (Paul (N1HEL)) wrote:

>Hmmm.  Thanks for the comments. It may be that the amperage
>indicator on my new main line surge protector is faulty.  I
>will try again, this time using a Kill-A-Watt power consumption
>meter on my various power strips and adding up the readings of
>power drawn.  More news as it happens...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz        |Security, like correctness, is| Periwinkle
(408)356-8506      |not an add-on feature. - Attr-| 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |ibuted to Andrew Tanenbaum    | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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Re: [K3] K3 Off Grid

AA6VO
There are so many things to consider when you try to calculate battery
requirements for emergency operation, is it really possible to accurately
predict how long a given battery will last? Here are a few of the variables
I'm aware of -

- battery type & amp/hour rating
- starting charge state of battery
- age & condition of battery
- environmental conditions - temperature
- loads other than K3 on battery, and whether constant or intermittant
- mode(s) of transmission, i.e., PSK, CW, SSB
- transmit power used for each mode
- percentage of time for each mode vs. receive time
- total operating time desired

For me, a subjective approach makes the most sense. I would make some rough
calculations but really pay attention to suggestions of those who have real
world experience. One or two of deep cycle golf cart batteries would
probably be all I ever would need. Then remember to keep them charged!

Oh, and don't assume you need 100W to make contacts! :)

Steve
AA6VO
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Re: [K3] K3 Off Grid

Don Wilhelm-4
In reply to this post by Paul Grigorieff-2
Paul,

It looks like you are ignoring the fact that your power supply is less
than 100% efficient.
Power into the supply does not equal power out of it.

The readings from your Astron current meter are more realistic for the
DC Current requirement.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/5/2014 3:16 PM, Paul Grigorieff wrote:

> OK, here are some new readings, taken with a Kill-A-Watt power consumption
> meter.  The readings in transmit mode were taken by keying down in CW for a
> few seconds and waiting until the meter reading stabilized.
>
> I have an Astron 70A power supply powering a Rigrunner that then supplies a
> K3, a KAT500, and a PigKnob.  The P3 is plugged into the K3.  There is a
> set of speakers, which draw .06A AC as well.
>
> K3 in RCV mode               .92A AC, or 84W       6 DC  at  14v
> K3 in XMIT, 15W out          2.7A AC, or 240W    17A DC    "
> K3 in XMIT, 50W out          3.7A AC, or 342W    24A DC    "
> K3 in XMIT, 100W out        4.7A AC, or 438W    31A DC    "
>
> How do these look to everyone?  I'd like to get them close to right so that
> I can calculate my battery needs for emergency operation.
>
> Something else I don't understand is the ammeter on the front of the
> Astron.  When the K3 is turned on,  the Astron's meter jumps up about 1A
> DC.  When the K3 is transmitting at 15W, the Astron's meter reads about 7A
> DC.  At 50W transmitted power, it reads 11A DC. And at 100W out, it reads
> 15A DC.  Quite a difference from the measured and computed DC amps listed
> above.  What is going on here?  Simply an innaccurate Astron meter?
>
>

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Re: [K3] K3 Off Grid

Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT
In reply to this post by AA6VO
Here is how I'd do it, your mileage may vary.

I'd measure the power draw at 100 watts key-down, and the power draw for
receive.

I'd assume 50% duty cycle.  You can skip a lot of math by either
ignoring the receive power draw (if it's low enough) and dividing by
two, or adding them together and dividing by two (averaging them together).

Multiply that number by the number of hours you need to be able to
operate -- and that's your target capacity in amp-hours.

That should over estimate the battery, so if that size wasn't
economical, I'd buy one slightly smaller.

That should insure that the battery does the job for years, even when
it's starting to fail.  It should also make sure you can keep operating
if the emergency was longer than initially planned.

Yes, there are a lot of factors, like operating mode that this appears
to ignore.  I'm simply assuming things like full power or nothing when
the operator might be running SSB or PSK-31 at 20 watts.

I'm also ignoring portability, which I would not do if I was operating
for fun.

73 -- Lynn

On 3/5/2014 1:15 PM, Steve Baum wrote:
> There are so many things to consider when you try to calculate battery
> requirements for emergency operation, is it really possible to accurately
> predict how long a given battery will last?

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FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid

Chester Alderman
Gosh Engineers...why not just suggest to Paul that he use the most simple
method of finding out the voltage and current the K3 draws by pressing the
K3's METER button????

73,
Tom - W4BQF



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lynn W. Taylor,
WB6UUT
Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 5:23 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid

Here is how I'd do it, your mileage may vary.

I'd measure the power draw at 100 watts key-down, and the power draw for
receive.

I'd assume 50% duty cycle.  You can skip a lot of math by either ignoring
the receive power draw (if it's low enough) and dividing by two, or adding
them together and dividing by two (averaging them together).

Multiply that number by the number of hours you need to be able to operate
-- and that's your target capacity in amp-hours.

That should over estimate the battery, so if that size wasn't economical,
I'd buy one slightly smaller.

That should insure that the battery does the job for years, even when it's
starting to fail.  It should also make sure you can keep operating if the
emergency was longer than initially planned.

Yes, there are a lot of factors, like operating mode that this appears to
ignore.  I'm simply assuming things like full power or nothing when the
operator might be running SSB or PSK-31 at 20 watts.

I'm also ignoring portability, which I would not do if I was operating for
fun.

73 -- Lynn

On 3/5/2014 1:15 PM, Steve Baum wrote:
> There are so many things to consider when you try to calculate battery
> requirements for emergency operation, is it really possible to
> accurately predict how long a given battery will last?

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Re: FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid

KC6CNN
That was suggested Chester.
It works too. You can kick around numbers and theory all day. Real world is
the best way and you have to remember, temp plays a major part too.
I have lived off grid for two years. My experience has been through trial
and error.
Mind you I don't run just ham equipment, I run a whole house.

Type of battery, method of charge , temp and age of battery bank all play
into how long you can run before you reach 50 percent battery power rating.

He was given many good examples of what would work and how to charge them.
And he also made the choice to get a good quiet generator so that not only
ham stuff and be run but also needed things in a disaster or emergency.

I have seen people say solar and are wind turbine are not worth it. Well
when you have nothing it is. Also knowing that my system is rated for 25
years, I can afford to put some away for new system and new technology. And
I must say it is great not having utility bills.

But, I have enjoyed following this thread and learning how others have and
would do it.

Oh and if any one is curious
1 - 12 volt system for led lights and ham stuff.
600 amp hours.
Solar and wind turbine to charge.

1 - 48 volt system to run all my A/C needs. 800 amp hours. Solar / propane
generator with self start and stop.  And home made steam engine that runs a
48 volt alternator .

Fun stuff.
73's
Gerald - KC6CNN
 On Mar 5, 2014 4:47 PM, "Chester Alderman" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Gosh Engineers...why not just suggest to Paul that he use the most simple
> method of finding out the voltage and current the K3 draws by pressing the
> K3's METER button????
>
> 73,
> Tom - W4BQF
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lynn W. Taylor,
> WB6UUT
> Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 5:23 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid
>
> Here is how I'd do it, your mileage may vary.
>
> I'd measure the power draw at 100 watts key-down, and the power draw for
> receive.
>
> I'd assume 50% duty cycle.  You can skip a lot of math by either ignoring
> the receive power draw (if it's low enough) and dividing by two, or adding
> them together and dividing by two (averaging them together).
>
> Multiply that number by the number of hours you need to be able to operate
> -- and that's your target capacity in amp-hours.
>
> That should over estimate the battery, so if that size wasn't economical,
> I'd buy one slightly smaller.
>
> That should insure that the battery does the job for years, even when it's
> starting to fail.  It should also make sure you can keep operating if the
> emergency was longer than initially planned.
>
> Yes, there are a lot of factors, like operating mode that this appears to
> ignore.  I'm simply assuming things like full power or nothing when the
> operator might be running SSB or PSK-31 at 20 watts.
>
> I'm also ignoring portability, which I would not do if I was operating for
> fun.
>
> 73 -- Lynn
>
> On 3/5/2014 1:15 PM, Steve Baum wrote:
> > There are so many things to consider when you try to calculate battery
> > requirements for emergency operation, is it really possible to
> > accurately predict how long a given battery will last?
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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KC6CNN - Gerald
K3 # 6294
KX3 # 757
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Re: FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid

Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT
In reply to this post by Chester Alderman
We were talking sizing a battery for emergency ops.

I'd expect the internal meter to read current into the finals, which
probably dates me pretty thoroughly to a time when "finals" was nearly
always preceded by the word "tube."

I can't check the K3 manual to see what it actually measures because I
don't have one.  I have a KX3, and a huge 7a power supply to run it.

-- Lynn

On 3/5/2014 2:47 PM, Chester Alderman wrote:

> Gosh Engineers...why not just suggest to Paul that he use the most simple
> method of finding out the voltage and current the K3 draws by pressing the
> K3's METER button????
>
> 73,
> Tom - W4BQF
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lynn W. Taylor,
> WB6UUT
> Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 5:23 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid
>
> Here is how I'd do it, your mileage may vary.
>
> I'd measure the power draw at 100 watts key-down, and the power draw for
> receive.
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Re: FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid

Don Wilhelm-4
Lynn,

The K3 or KX3 measures the total current draw with quite reasonable
accuracy.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/5/2014 7:17 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:

> We were talking sizing a battery for emergency ops.
>
> I'd expect the internal meter to read current into the finals, which
> probably dates me pretty thoroughly to a time when "finals" was nearly
> always preceded by the word "tube."
>
> I can't check the K3 manual to see what it actually measures because I
> don't have one.  I have a KX3, and a huge 7a power supply to run it.
>
> -- Lynn
>
> On 3/5/2014 2:47 PM, Chester Alderman wrote:
>> Gosh Engineers...why not just suggest to Paul that he use the most
>> simple
>> method of finding out the voltage and current the K3 draws by
>> pressing the
>> K3's METER button????
>>
>> 73,
>> Tom - W4BQF
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lynn W. Taylor,
>> WB6UUT
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 5:23 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid
>>
>> Here is how I'd do it, your mileage may vary.
>>
>> I'd measure the power draw at 100 watts key-down, and the power draw for
>> receive.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Re: FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid

k6dgw
In reply to this post by KC6CNN
On 3/5/2014 4:02 PM, Gerald Manthey wrote:

> I have seen people say solar and are wind turbine are not worth it. Well
> when you have nothing it is. Also knowing that my system is rated for 25
> years, I can afford to put some away for new system and new technology. And
> I must say it is great not having utility bills.

It's all economics and accounting.  Your cost of energy from those
sources is replacement cost ["stuff" and labor] plus whatever debt cost
you are currently carrying.  You can choose to either include or exclude
your own labor costs
>
> But, I have enjoyed following this thread and learning how others have and
> would do it.

I have too!!  Living a life totally "off-the-grid" is very hard, and I
admire you.  Running just your radio off-the-grid is a whole lot easier.
  I can "sort of" do that, LP but not necessarily QRP.  We still pay our
electricity, telephone, propane, grocery, gasoline, medical, and DirecTV
bills.  At our ages, that's not going to change.  Our I'net is free, I
host the wireless provider for our neighborhood on my tower. :-)


> And home made steam engine that runs a 48 volt alternator.

OK, surely you have photos and an explanation!! :-)))  I'd really like
to see it.  What turns the water to steam?  Frequency of the alternator?
  Why 48VAC?

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
- www.cqp.org


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Re: FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Administrator
Folks - we're way exceeding the single topic posting limit on this thread. Lets
close it at this time.

73,

Eric
elecraft.com


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Re: FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid

Cookie
In reply to this post by Chester Alderman
Most Engineers including me like lots of meters and we have the voltage and current instantaneous meters on our power supplies.  The metering on the K3 is redundant with the meters on the power supply.  A 50% duty cycle on transmit is way too much current.  Holding your key down 50% of the time will not make you very popular and will not yield a good fist.  About 30 to 35 % duty is a pretty good fist but you need to listen almost half the time if you are an excellent CW operator sending CQ and not getting any pile ups, so your duty cycle will vary from the hunt and pounce operator with less than 5% to the contest operator who holds a frequency and has a good answer rate which will have a duty cycle of maybe 15%.  A good contest operator will need several rotors and a 1500 watt (or more) amp which are hardly candidates for battery power.  So if you assume no rotary antenna and low power, you are good for a 48 hour contest with a good deep cycle
 battery starting at full charge.  Do you have a good battery with full charge?  That is entirely a different matter!
 
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart


________________________________
 From: Chester Alderman <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 4:47 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] FW:  [K3] K3 Off Grid
 

Gosh Engineers...why not just suggest to Paul that he use the most simple
method of finding out the voltage and current the K3 draws by pressing the
K3's METER button????

73,
Tom - W4BQF



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lynn W. Taylor,
WB6UUT
Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 5:23 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid

Here is how I'd do it, your mileage may vary.

I'd measure the power draw at 100 watts key-down, and the power draw for
receive.

I'd assume 50% duty cycle.  You can skip a lot of math by either ignoring
the receive power draw (if it's low enough) and dividing by two, or adding
them together and dividing by two (averaging them together).

Multiply that number by the number of hours you need to be able to operate
-- and that's your target capacity in amp-hours.

That should over estimate the battery, so if that size wasn't economical,
I'd buy one slightly smaller.

That should insure that the battery does the job for years, even when it's
starting to fail.  It should also make sure you can keep operating if the
emergency was longer than initially planned.

Yes, there are a lot of factors, like operating mode that this appears to
ignore.  I'm simply assuming things like full power or nothing when the
operator might be running SSB or PSK-31 at 20 watts.

I'm also ignoring portability, which I would not do if I was operating for
fun.

73 -- Lynn

On 3/5/2014 1:15 PM, Steve Baum wrote:
> There are so many things to consider when you try to calculate battery
> requirements for emergency operation, is it really possible to
> accurately predict how long a given battery will last?

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Re: FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid

Chester Alderman
I guess you are way ahead of me Cookie because nothing you said in response
to my statement, is related.

 

73,

Tom - W4BQF - USS Forrestal - USS Saratoga - USS Enterprise - etc.

 

 

 

From: WILLIS COOKE [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 10:20 PM
To: Chester Alderman; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid

 

Most Engineers including me like lots of meters and we have the voltage and
current instantaneous meters on our power supplies.  The metering on the K3
is redundant with the meters on the power supply.  A 50% duty cycle on
transmit is way too much current.  Holding your key down 50% of the time
will not make you very popular and will not yield a good fist.  About 30 to
35 % duty is a pretty good fist but you need to listen almost half the time
if you are an excellent CW operator sending CQ and not getting any pile ups,
so your duty cycle will vary from the hunt and pounce operator with less
than 5% to the contest operator who holds a frequency and has a good answer
rate which will have a duty cycle of maybe 15%.  A good contest operator
will need several rotors and a 1500 watt (or more) amp which are hardly
candidates for battery power.  So if you assume no rotary antenna and low
power, you are good for a 48 hour contest with a good deep cycle battery
starting at full charge.  Do you have a good battery with full charge?  That
is entirely a different matter!

 

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman

K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart

 

  _____  

From: Chester Alderman <[hidden email]
<mailto:[hidden email]> >
To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>  
Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 4:47 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid


Gosh Engineers...why not just suggest to Paul that he use the most simple
method of finding out the voltage and current the K3 draws by pressing the
K3's METER button????

73,
Tom - W4BQF



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
<mailto:[hidden email]>
[mailto:[hidden email]
<mailto:[hidden email]> ] On Behalf Of Lynn W. Taylor,
WB6UUT
Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 5:23 PM
To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid

Here is how I'd do it, your mileage may vary.

I'd measure the power draw at 100 watts key-down, and the power draw for
receive.

I'd assume 50% duty cycle.  You can skip a lot of math by either ignoring
the receive power draw (if it's low enough) and dividing by two, or adding
them together and dividing by two (averaging them together).

Multiply that number by the number of hours you need to be able to operate
-- and that's your target capacity in amp-hours.

That should over estimate the battery, so if that size wasn't economical,
I'd buy one slightly smaller.

That should insure that the battery does the job for years, even when it's
starting to fail.  It should also make sure you can keep operating if the
emergency was longer than initially planned.

Yes, there are a lot of factors, like operating mode that this appears to
ignore.  I'm simply assuming things like full power or nothing when the
operator might be running SSB or PSK-31 at 20 watts.

I'm also ignoring portability, which I would not do if I was operating for
fun.

73 -- Lynn

On 3/5/2014 1:15 PM, Steve Baum wrote:
> There are so many things to consider when you try to calculate battery
> requirements for emergency operation, is it really possible to
> accurately predict how long a given battery will last?

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