Re: Seperate Receive Antenna

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Re: Seperate Receive Antenna

Jim Bolit

The LZ1AQ amplifier is NOT a differential input amp, rather it is referenced to ground.

This can have significant issues as it relates to common mode noise.

As a result of my research, I ended up with a Pixel loop.  The amp has great characteristics, differential input, uses an A.C.  wallwart for low noise, and the install instructions isolate the amp from any ground.  

The loop interface also has a control line input from your rig, that controls an internal relay, so the amp is protected when you transmit.  The loop was designed by hams.

The mechanical design of the loop is excellent, using welds at the aluminum joints.

I have no interest in the Pixel company, just a very satisfied customer.  So satisfied, I bought two of them and phase them with a DX Engineering NCC-1 phaser.

Jim
W6AIM



-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wouter Jan Ubbels
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 12:28 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft Digest, Vol 129, Issue 41

Hi Paul,

I can recommend LZ1AQ´s active loop antenna.
See

http://active-antenna.eu/

It offers a nice variety of antenna configuration options, and it plays very well here as a separate RX antenna at my urban & noisy QTH. The unit is of high quality, and very well documented.
I am using it with my KX3 and a homebrew switchbox which uses reed relays for QSK switching, controlled by the KX3 PTT output taken from the ACC2 jack.

73,

Wouter Jan PE4WJ



> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:15:32 +0000
> From: Paul Barlow <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Elecraft] Separate Receiving Antenna
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Elecrafters,
>
> I have a very small and odd shaped garden in which to play Ham Radio.
> I have a K3 (and a K2 and... ), I run QRP CW and I was wondering if
> anyone had experience of using active loop antennas as receiving
> antennas to lower the noise floor. I was looking at Wellbrook's
> Website this afternoon, and I see that their loops get good reviews on
> EHam. I was wondering what experience you guys might have with these
> and similar antennas.
>
> 73, Paul EI5KI
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: Seperate Receive Antenna

Michael Walker
Jan

What configuration did you use on your lz1aq loop?

Mike va3mw

> On Jan 31, 2015, at 6:02 PM, jim <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> The LZ1AQ amplifier is NOT a differential input amp, rather it is referenced to ground.
>
> This can have significant issues as it relates to common mode noise.
>
> As a result of my research, I ended up with a Pixel loop.  The amp has great characteristics, differential input, uses an A.C.  wallwart for low noise, and the install instructions isolate the amp from any ground.  
>
> The loop interface also has a control line input from your rig, that controls an internal relay, so the amp is protected when you transmit.  The loop was designed by hams.
>
> The mechanical design of the loop is excellent, using welds at the aluminum joints.
>
> I have no interest in the Pixel company, just a very satisfied customer.  So satisfied, I bought two of them and phase them with a DX Engineering NCC-1 phaser.
>
> Jim
> W6AIM
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wouter Jan Ubbels
> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 12:28 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft Digest, Vol 129, Issue 41
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> I can recommend LZ1AQ´s active loop antenna.
> See
>
> http://active-antenna.eu/
>
> It offers a nice variety of antenna configuration options, and it plays very well here as a separate RX antenna at my urban & noisy QTH. The unit is of high quality, and very well documented.
> I am using it with my KX3 and a homebrew switchbox which uses reed relays for QSK switching, controlled by the KX3 PTT output taken from the ACC2 jack.
>
> 73,
>
> Wouter Jan PE4WJ
>
>
>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:15:32 +0000
>> From: Paul Barlow <[hidden email]>
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: [Elecraft] Separate Receiving Antenna
>> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Dear Elecrafters,
>>
>> I have a very small and odd shaped garden in which to play Ham Radio.
>> I have a K3 (and a K2 and... ), I run QRP CW and I was wondering if
>> anyone had experience of using active loop antennas as receiving
>> antennas to lower the noise floor. I was looking at Wellbrook's
>> Website this afternoon, and I see that their loops get good reviews on
>> EHam. I was wondering what experience you guys might have with these
>> and similar antennas.
>>
>> 73, Paul EI5KI
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: Seperate Receive Antenna

David Cutter

Jim

How did you determine that the LZ1AQ amplifier is not a differential amp?
the diagrams lead me to believe that it has differential inputs.  Page 29
shows the specification item 10 which states that the inputs are balanced.
What am I missing, where should I be looking?

73

David
G3UNA


>> On Jan 31, 2015, at 6:02 PM, jim <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The LZ1AQ amplifier is NOT a differential input amp, rather it is
>> referenced to ground.
>>
>> This can have significant issues as it relates to common mode noise.
>>
>> As a result of my research, I ended up with a Pixel loop.  The amp has
>> great characteristics, differential input, uses an A.C.  wallwart for low
>> noise, and the install instructions isolate the amp from any ground.
>>
>> The loop interface also has a control line input from your rig, that
>> controls an internal relay, so the amp is protected when you transmit.
>> The loop was designed by hams.
>>
>> The mechanical design of the loop is excellent, using welds at the
>> aluminum joints.
>>
>> I have no interest in the Pixel company, just a very satisfied customer.
>> So satisfied, I bought two of them and phase them with a DX Engineering
>> NCC-1 phaser.
>>
>> Jim
>> W6AIM
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>> Wouter Jan Ubbels
>> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 12:28 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft Digest, Vol 129, Issue 41
>>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> I can recommend LZ1AQ´s active loop antenna.
>> See
>>
>> http://active-antenna.eu/
>>
>> It offers a nice variety of antenna configuration options, and it plays
>> very well here as a separate RX antenna at my urban & noisy QTH. The unit
>> is of high quality, and very well documented.
>> I am using it with my KX3 and a homebrew switchbox which uses reed relays
>> for QSK switching, controlled by the KX3 PTT output taken from the ACC2
>> jack.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Wouter Jan PE4WJ
>>
>>
>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:15:32 +0000
>>> From: Paul Barlow <[hidden email]>
>>> To: <[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: [Elecraft] Separate Receiving Antenna
>>> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Dear Elecrafters,
>>>
>>> I have a very small and odd shaped garden in which to play Ham Radio.
>>> I have a K3 (and a K2 and... ), I run QRP CW and I was wondering if
>>> anyone had experience of using active loop antennas as receiving
>>> antennas to lower the noise floor. I was looking at Wellbrook's
>>> Website this afternoon, and I see that their loops get good reviews on
>>> EHam. I was wondering what experience you guys might have with these
>>> and similar antennas.
>>>
>>> 73, Paul EI5KI
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html 
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Re: Seperate Receive Antenna

Jim Bolit
There was a schematic published by LZ1AQ that showed the implementation of a loop required that one of the inputs of the amp was referenced to ground.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: David Cutter [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, February 1, 2015 11:59 AM
To: Mike va3mw; jim
Cc: [hidden email]; Wouter Jan Ubbels
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Seperate Receive Antenna


Jim

How did you determine that the LZ1AQ amplifier is not a differential amp?
the diagrams lead me to believe that it has differential inputs.  Page 29 shows the specification item 10 which states that the inputs are balanced.
What am I missing, where should I be looking?

73

David
G3UNA


>> On Jan 31, 2015, at 6:02 PM, jim <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The LZ1AQ amplifier is NOT a differential input amp, rather it is
>> referenced to ground.
>>
>> This can have significant issues as it relates to common mode noise.
>>
>> As a result of my research, I ended up with a Pixel loop.  The amp
>> has great characteristics, differential input, uses an A.C.  wallwart
>> for low noise, and the install instructions isolate the amp from any ground.
>>
>> The loop interface also has a control line input from your rig, that
>> controls an internal relay, so the amp is protected when you transmit.
>> The loop was designed by hams.
>>
>> The mechanical design of the loop is excellent, using welds at the
>> aluminum joints.
>>
>> I have no interest in the Pixel company, just a very satisfied customer.
>> So satisfied, I bought two of them and phase them with a DX
>> Engineering
>> NCC-1 phaser.
>>
>> Jim
>> W6AIM
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>> Wouter Jan Ubbels
>> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 12:28 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft Digest, Vol 129, Issue 41
>>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> I can recommend LZ1AQ´s active loop antenna.
>> See
>>
>> http://active-antenna.eu/
>>
>> It offers a nice variety of antenna configuration options, and it
>> plays very well here as a separate RX antenna at my urban & noisy
>> QTH. The unit is of high quality, and very well documented.
>> I am using it with my KX3 and a homebrew switchbox which uses reed
>> relays for QSK switching, controlled by the KX3 PTT output taken from
>> the ACC2 jack.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Wouter Jan PE4WJ
>>
>>
>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:15:32 +0000
>>> From: Paul Barlow <[hidden email]>
>>> To: <[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: [Elecraft] Separate Receiving Antenna
>>> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Dear Elecrafters,
>>>
>>> I have a very small and odd shaped garden in which to play Ham Radio.
>>> I have a K3 (and a K2 and... ), I run QRP CW and I was wondering if
>>> anyone had experience of using active loop antennas as receiving
>>> antennas to lower the noise floor. I was looking at Wellbrook's
>>> Website this afternoon, and I see that their loops get good reviews
>>> on EHam. I was wondering what experience you guys might have with
>>> these and similar antennas.
>>>
>>> 73, Paul EI5KI
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]


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Re: Seperate Receive Antenna

David Cutter
Thanks, Jim, that's opened out the discussion very well for me.  I am not
able to determine how bad this makes the performance, since the output is
floating and I think hardly susceptible to common mode problems.  I'm in the
market for such antennas but most are outside my budget.  I would like to
have 2 loops (could be large loops)  a half wavelength apart for diversity
reception on 160 and this system with its delay line might do that
economically.  2  amplified receive aerials (eg from CCW here in UK) with a
phasing box would also be economical.  The next on my list is the shared
apex.

thanks again for the link

73

David
G3UNA

Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Seperate Receive Antenna


Dave,

Here is the quote from W8JI


Start quote""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""


10-29-2011, 05:36 PM #8

W8JI


Quote Originally Posted by WV6U View Post

Here is one broadband RX loop design that I found very interesting and
something worth trying out. Once I am done with my TX loop for 40-15m, maybe
I will start with this

http://lz1aq.signacor.com/docs/wsml/...op-antenna.htm

 I would not use that system in the link.

 While a good analysis, the amplifier is ground referenced. It is not a
ground independent differential input. An ideal amplifier should have ZERO
output if one loop terminal was open circuited. Otherwise, it has less than
perfect common mode rejection.

 Bandwidth of the loop vs. noise is a myth. The only reasons a narrow loop
bandwidth, or any antenna or amplifier bandwidth, would ever reduce noise or
interference are when at least one of two conditions are met:

 1.) The receiver IF filter is wider than bandwidth of the pre-receiver
system. This helps because overall bandwidth is reduced. 1/2 bandwidth= 3dB
less noise if the signal is still narrower than the narrowest bandwidth

 2.) Something in a stage in front of the receiver narrow filter is
overloading, and the system in front of the receiver is narrow enough to
reduce the unwanted signal and stop or reduce the overload

 73 Tom


End
Quote"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

The link to the above quote is

http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?318414-Magnetic-Loop-RX-Antennas


Jim

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Re: Seperate Receive Antenna

Jim Bolit
David,

Not sure what ur budget is.

The amp in the Pixel is a Cliffton Labs design, using the Norton  architecture.  Jack of Cliffton labs cannot share info of the amp design, as he is under non-disclosure.  He does sell a great amp, using the Norton structure, that has a gain ~ 50% of the gain of the Pixel amp.  The Pixel amp and his for sale amp use the exact architecture.  The interface to the amp is also well thought out.  The amp is protected if you hook up a signal that goes low when the xmitter is keyed.  It removes power from the loop.

Take a look at Dallas Lankford's page on Yahoo groups.  He has done A LOT of work in the area of low noise antennas and loops with amplifiers, and has some GREAT articles on that Yahoo group page.  He discusses how to use the Cliffton amp with loops with good results.  I just went and bought a Pixel, as I did not want yet another project to get 75% done and then sit.  

Dallas Lankford is a great resource for BCBDX and loops/low noise antennas.

Also, if you "mind the gap" and account for common mode, the LZ1AQ amp would work.  Again, just take note of potential CM issues.

Jim


 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Cutter [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, February 2, 2015 10:43 AM
To: jim
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Seperate Receive Antenna

Thanks, Jim, that's opened out the discussion very well for me.  I am not able to determine how bad this makes the performance, since the output is floating and I think hardly susceptible to common mode problems.  I'm in the market for such antennas but most are outside my budget.  I would like to have 2 loops (could be large loops)  a half wavelength apart for diversity reception on 160 and this system with its delay line might do that economically.  2  amplified receive aerials (eg from CCW here in UK) with a phasing box would also be economical.  The next on my list is the shared apex.

thanks again for the link

73

David
G3UNA

Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Seperate Receive Antenna


Dave,

Here is the quote from W8JI


Start quote""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""


10-29-2011, 05:36 PM #8

W8JI


Quote Originally Posted by WV6U View Post

Here is one broadband RX loop design that I found very interesting and something worth trying out. Once I am done with my TX loop for 40-15m, maybe I will start with this

http://lz1aq.signacor.com/docs/wsml/...op-antenna.htm

 I would not use that system in the link.

 While a good analysis, the amplifier is ground referenced. It is not a ground independent differential input. An ideal amplifier should have ZERO output if one loop terminal was open circuited. Otherwise, it has less than perfect common mode rejection.

 Bandwidth of the loop vs. noise is a myth. The only reasons a narrow loop bandwidth, or any antenna or amplifier bandwidth, would ever reduce noise or interference are when at least one of two conditions are met:

 1.) The receiver IF filter is wider than bandwidth of the pre-receiver system. This helps because overall bandwidth is reduced. 1/2 bandwidth= 3dB less noise if the signal is still narrower than the narrowest bandwidth

 2.) Something in a stage in front of the receiver narrow filter is overloading, and the system in front of the receiver is narrow enough to reduce the unwanted signal and stop or reduce the overload

 73 Tom


End
Quote"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

The link to the above quote is

http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?318414-Magnetic-Loop-RX-Antennas


Jim

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Re: Seperate Receive Antenna

Wouter Jan Ubbels
In reply to this post by Jim Bolit
Mike,

I am using it with 2 loops, which are mounted at a 90 degree angle with
respect to eachother. This allows me to switch direction, which is most
pronounced on 160m and medium wave. The loops themselves are square rather
than round (as recommended by LZ1AQ) due to mechanical constraints,
furthermore each loop actually consists out of 2 loops in parallel to lower
the inductance. I hardly use the dipole mode, since that almost always
results in a much higher noise floor due to man made noise at my QTH.

Jim, David,

Regarding differential inputs, I concur with David that the diagrams
published on http://active-antenna.eu/amplifier-kit/technical-documentation/
suggest that the amplifier has a differential input, so not sure which
schematic you refer to Jim?

73,

Wouter Jan PE4WJ


On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:59 AM, jim <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There was a schematic published by LZ1AQ that showed the implementation of
> a loop required that one of the inputs of the amp was referenced to ground.
>
> Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Cutter [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Sunday, February 1, 2015 11:59 AM
> To: Mike va3mw; jim
> Cc: [hidden email]; Wouter Jan Ubbels
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Seperate Receive Antenna
>
>
> Jim
>
> How did you determine that the LZ1AQ amplifier is not a differential amp?
> the diagrams lead me to believe that it has differential inputs.  Page 29
> shows the specification item 10 which states that the inputs are balanced.
> What am I missing, where should I be looking?
>
> 73
>
> David
> G3UNA
>
>
> >> On Jan 31, 2015, at 6:02 PM, jim <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> The LZ1AQ amplifier is NOT a differential input amp, rather it is
> >> referenced to ground.
> >>
> >> This can have significant issues as it relates to common mode noise.
> >>
> >> As a result of my research, I ended up with a Pixel loop.  The amp
> >> has great characteristics, differential input, uses an A.C.  wallwart
> >> for low noise, and the install instructions isolate the amp from any
> ground.
> >>
> >> The loop interface also has a control line input from your rig, that
> >> controls an internal relay, so the amp is protected when you transmit.
> >> The loop was designed by hams.
> >>
> >> The mechanical design of the loop is excellent, using welds at the
> >> aluminum joints.
> >>
> >> I have no interest in the Pixel company, just a very satisfied customer.
> >> So satisfied, I bought two of them and phase them with a DX
> >> Engineering
> >> NCC-1 phaser.
> >>
> >> Jim
> >> W6AIM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> >> Wouter Jan Ubbels
> >> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 12:28 PM
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft Digest, Vol 129, Issue 41
> >>
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> I can recommend LZ1AQ´s active loop antenna.
> >> See
> >>
> >> http://active-antenna.eu/
> >>
> >> It offers a nice variety of antenna configuration options, and it
> >> plays very well here as a separate RX antenna at my urban & noisy
> >> QTH. The unit is of high quality, and very well documented.
> >> I am using it with my KX3 and a homebrew switchbox which uses reed
> >> relays for QSK switching, controlled by the KX3 PTT output taken from
> >> the ACC2 jack.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >>
> >> Wouter Jan PE4WJ
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Message: 2
> >>> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:15:32 +0000
> >>> From: Paul Barlow <[hidden email]>
> >>> To: <[hidden email]>
> >>> Subject: [Elecraft] Separate Receiving Antenna
> >>> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>>
> >>> Dear Elecrafters,
> >>>
> >>> I have a very small and odd shaped garden in which to play Ham Radio.
> >>> I have a K3 (and a K2 and... ), I run QRP CW and I was wondering if
> >>> anyone had experience of using active loop antennas as receiving
> >>> antennas to lower the noise floor. I was looking at Wellbrook's
> >>> Website this afternoon, and I see that their loops get good reviews
> >>> on EHam. I was wondering what experience you guys might have with
> >>> these and similar antennas.
> >>>
> >>> 73, Paul EI5KI
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Re: Seperate Receive Antenna

James Balls-2
In reply to this post by Jim Bolit
Do you have a link to this please?

Jim M0CKE



On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 19:04:18 -0000, jim <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dallas Lankford's page on Yahoo groups


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