Rick & antennas...

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Rick & antennas...

Elecraft mailing list
"The Buckmaster never wins compared to inverted vees though, but it DOES tune up on multiple bands.  It and the Elecraft tuner get along fine, so it serves its purpose (which is NOT high performance)."

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa????????? The Buckmaster is recommended to be installed as an inverted V. That's sweet that the E Tuner gets along with it but I have the 3,000w version and run full legal limit on all bands (where allowed) that it operates on without the need to use my tuner. Not high performance eh? Funny stuff. I suggest anyone considering this fine antenna consult the  eHam reviews of it by people who actually own the antenna & have experience with it. Comparing a beam antenna to a wire is sort of ridiculous IMO for what should be more than obvious reasons. Lotsa haters out there as usual.

kd0bcf


       
                       "Das war ein Vorspiel nur, dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen." ("That was but a prelude; where they burn books, they will ultimately burn people also.")
                              Heinrich Heine, 1821
                 
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Re: Rick & antennas...

Jim Brown-10
On Wed,12/9/2015 3:06 PM, Tom Fitzgerald via Elecraft wrote:
> Lotsa haters out there as usual.

Or lots of guys who know how antennas work and know hype when they see
it. :)

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Rick & antennas...

Joe Subich, W4TV-4
In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Off-center fed dipoles are a compromise at best.  They will never be
any better than a simple half wave dipole for the current band and a
multi-band fan or trapped fan dipole generally provides a better match
without complex and failure prone matching networks.

A well designed multi-band fan or fan of trapped dipoles is easy for
the user to build and erect for much less $$ than the Buckmaster.  The
only "benefit" of commercial OCF antennas is that they separate the
inexperienced and unsophisticated from their cash.

I've run 100W and wire antennas for more than 15 years ... in that time
I've tried both OCF vs. tapped inverted Vs vs. multi-band fan antennas
vs. G5RV type antennas.  The multi-band fan is more efficient and less
noisy quieter than any of the OCF or G5RV type antennas.

For simple antennas, K9YC is correct ... use a multi-band fan for 80,
40 and 30 meters and the largest Cushcraft R-series vertical you can
afford/install *on the roof* for [40/30]/20/17/15/12/10/6.  When you
get some experience and are ready to spend real money, install a tower
and a good yagi (or yagis) for 20-6 meters.

My dipoles and verticals have been enough to place 2nd worldwide in
the low power/simple antenna class of CQ's DX Marathon for the last
several years ... plus land me on the DXCC Honor Roll both CW and Mixed
as well as rack up more than 2500 countries on DXCC Challenge.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 12/9/2015 6:06 PM, Tom Fitzgerald via Elecraft wrote:

> "The Buckmaster never wins compared to inverted vees though, but it
> DOES tune up on multiple bands.  It and the Elecraft tuner get along
> fine, so it serves its purpose (which is NOT high performance)."
>
> Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa????????? The Buckmaster is recommended to be
> installed as an inverted V. That's sweet that the E Tuner gets along
> with it but I have the 3,000w version and run full legal limit on all
> bands (where allowed) that it operates on without the need to use my
> tuner. Not high performance eh? Funny stuff. I suggest anyone
> considering this fine antenna consult the  eHam reviews of it by
> people who actually own the antenna & have experience with it.
> Comparing a beam antenna to a wire is sort of ridiculous IMO for what
> should be more than obvious reasons. Lotsa haters out there as
> usual.
>
> kd0bcf
>
>
>
> "Das war ein Vorspiel nur, dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt
> man auch am Ende Menschen." ("That was but a prelude; where they burn
> books, they will ultimately burn people also.") Heinrich Heine, 1821
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list Home:
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:
> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post:
> mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]
>
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Re: Rick & antennas...

riese-k3djc
In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

i wondered about the 30 db difference,,,
har !!

bob k3djc


> Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa????????? The Buckmaster is recommended to be
> installed as an inverted V. That's sweet that the E Tuner gets along
> with it but I have the 3,000w version and run full legal limit on
> all bands (where allowed) that it operates on without the need to
> use my tuner. Not high performance eh? Funny stuff. I suggest anyone
> considering this fine antenna consult the  eHam reviews of it by
> people who actually own the antenna & have experience with it.
> Comparing a beam antenna to a wire is sort of ridiculous IMO for
> what should be more than obvious reasons. Lotsa haters out there as
> usual.
>
> kd0bcf
>

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Re: Rick & antennas...

Charlie T, K3ICH
In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
I forget the name of it, (MAX-something) but there was an "antenna" produced back in the 70's that consisted of a sealed center box with a coax connector on the bottom and two eyes to attach dipole wires.  The ads claimed good match from 80 thru 10 M.  It was basically a 50 Ω non-inductive resistor across the feed line which also connected to the two eyes.  It was potted, so you had to destroy it to see what was inside.   If did in fact radiate a little and of course provided a decent match to the coax.

Another "slightly" more efficient antenna was produced by the venerable B & W Company and sold as a wide band dipole.   It's coax feed point had a 6:1 balun which fed a fairly wide (12" ??) spaced 90 foot folded dipole which was terminated with a 600 Ω  *resistor in the center, physically right above the center fed balun.  We had one at Microlog and used it quite successfully on the HAM bands as well as the Marine SITOR freqs, however, a random 100 foot dipole fed directly with coax thru an MN-2700 generally worked better.

My point here is that there is a wide range of antenna types & performance and they all work to some degree.

Hard to beat a simple resonant dipole though.

I agree with Joe.  Nothing wrong with traps either, especially since there's no 'tuner' required.

73, Charlie k3ICH



*  (Might be wrong on the value....seems it should be 300 Ω.  Then again, maybe the balun was 12:1)  


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Re: Rick & antennas...

w5sum
In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4
Full wave loop

Sent from Ronnie's IPhone

> On Dec 9, 2015, at 19:42, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Off-center fed dipoles are a compromise at best.  They will never be
> any better than a simple half wave dipole for the current band and a
> multi-band fan or trapped fan dipole generally provides a better match
> without complex and failure prone matching networks.
>
> A well designed multi-band fan or fan of trapped dipoles is easy for
> the user to build and erect for much less $$ than the Buckmaster.  The
> only "benefit" of commercial OCF antennas is that they separate the
> inexperienced and unsophisticated from their cash.
>
> I've run 100W and wire antennas for more than 15 years ... in that time
> I've tried both OCF vs. tapped inverted Vs vs. multi-band fan antennas
> vs. G5RV type antennas.  The multi-band fan is more efficient and less
> noisy quieter than any of the OCF or G5RV type antennas.
>
> For simple antennas, K9YC is correct ... use a multi-band fan for 80,
> 40 and 30 meters and the largest Cushcraft R-series vertical you can
> afford/install *on the roof* for [40/30]/20/17/15/12/10/6.  When you
> get some experience and are ready to spend real money, install a tower
> and a good yagi (or yagis) for 20-6 meters.
>
> My dipoles and verticals have been enough to place 2nd worldwide in
> the low power/simple antenna class of CQ's DX Marathon for the last
> several years ... plus land me on the DXCC Honor Roll both CW and Mixed
> as well as rack up more than 2500 countries on DXCC Challenge.
>
> 73,
>
>  ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>> On 12/9/2015 6:06 PM, Tom Fitzgerald via Elecraft wrote:
>> "The Buckmaster never wins compared to inverted vees though, but it
>> DOES tune up on multiple bands.  It and the Elecraft tuner get along
>> fine, so it serves its purpose (which is NOT high performance)."
>>
>> Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa????????? The Buckmaster is recommended to be
>> installed as an inverted V. That's sweet that the E Tuner gets along
>> with it but I have the 3,000w version and run full legal limit on all
>> bands (where allowed) that it operates on without the need to use my
>> tuner. Not high performance eh? Funny stuff. I suggest anyone
>> considering this fine antenna consult the  eHam reviews of it by
>> people who actually own the antenna & have experience with it.
>> Comparing a beam antenna to a wire is sort of ridiculous IMO for what
>> should be more than obvious reasons. Lotsa haters out there as
>> usual.
>>
>> kd0bcf
>>
>>
>>
>> "Das war ein Vorspiel nur, dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt
>> man auch am Ende Menschen." ("That was but a prelude; where they burn
>> books, they will ultimately burn people also.") Heinrich Heine, 1821
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list Home:
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post:
>> mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
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Re: Rick & antennas...

john@kk9a.com
In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
How do you know that it works well?  Low SWR or even working DX is no
indication of antenna performance. I really do not understand the
popularity of OCF antennas. They can have considerable common mode current
making them susceptible to feedline radiation and RF in the shack.  Simple
dipoles or fan dipole for the desired bands is a much better option.

John KK9A

Wed Dec 9 18:06:50 EST 2015
Previous message (by thread): [Elecraft] P3 cw waterfall
Next message (by thread): [Elecraft] Rick & antennas...

The Buckmaster is recommended to be installed as an inverted V. That's
sweet that the E Tuner gets along with it but I have the 3,000w version
and run full legal limit on all bands (where allowed) that it operates on
without the need to use my tuner. Not high performance eh? Funny stuff. I
suggest anyone considering this fine antenna consult the  eHam reviews of
it by people who actually own the antenna & have experience with it.
Comparing a beam antenna to a wire is sort of ridiculous IMO for what
should be more than obvious reasons. Lotsa haters out there as usual.

kd0bcf

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Re: Rick & antennas...

EUGENE GABRY
John,
 
As a user of an 80M OCF dipole, I knew it was going to be a compromise. My goal was to be able to put up an antenna on a small lot that would get me on the air on 80 and 40. I don't have room to run even a full 1/2 wave dipole for 80m, or a lot of wires, but the OCF dimensions (45'/90') fit in to my lot with a bit of zig-zagging. I don't use the OCF on anything higher than 40m as I have a small beam for the higher bands.
Yes, common mode current can be a problem if not designed properly. I use a 4:1 current balun and an additional 10 turn choke at the feed point, in addition to a single point ground system. No issues at this location.
I agree simple dipoles or fan dipoles would be desired. In my case, I do not have 66' in both directions, of the direction of interest, to string a full size 80m dipole. But I can get 45' in one direction and the 90' leg does take a turn at 75'.
Point is, we put up what we can, understanding the compromises (antenna theory) in the space we have.
 
One point of relative (A/B) comparison I can share . The 80m OFC is resonate of course on 17 and 12 meters. I have a rotatable trap dipole (D3W) on the tower for 12/17/30m at 42'. The OFC is at 35'. When comparing signal strength of the two antennas to EU, which is where the OFC is broad side to on 17m, the OFC is about 20DB less signal strength than the rotatable trap dipole. So yes, the OCF is a compromise.
 
There has been one benefit to the OCF in contesting, and that is in the NAQP and SS contest. With it's height above ground at only 35', it works well for close in state side contacts on 20/40/80. It comes down to what the operators goals are, and understanding antenna theory.
 
73 Gene N9TF

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 7:16:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Rick & antennas...

How do you know that it works well?  Low SWR or even working DX is no
indication of antenna performance
I really do not understand the
popularity of OCF antennas. They can have considerable common mode current
making them susceptible to feedline radiation and RF in the shack.  Simple
dipoles or fan dipole for the desired bands is a much better option.

John KK9A

Wed Dec 9 18:06:50 EST 2015
Previous message (by thread): [Elecraft] P3 cw waterfall
Next message (by thread): [Elecraft] Rick & antennas...

The Buckmaster is recommended to be installed as an inverted V. That's
sweet that the E Tuner gets along with it but I have the 3,000w version
and run full legal limit on all bands (where allowed) that it operates on
without the need to use my tuner. Not high performance eh? Funny stuff. I
suggest anyone considering this fine antenna consult the  eHam reviews of
it by people who actually own the antenna & have experience with it.
Comparing a beam antenna to a wire is sort of ridiculous IMO for what
should be more than obvious reasons. Lotsa haters out there as usual.

kd0bcf

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Re: Rick & antennas...

Jim Brown-10
On Thu,12/10/2015 7:33 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> I don't have room to run even a full 1/2 wave dipole for 80m, or a lot of wires, but the OCF dimensions (45'/90') fit in to my lot with a bit of zig-zagging.

I had a similar issue on my Chicago city lot. My solution was a loaded
dipole for 80M that also resonated on 40M. You can buy antennas like
this here.

http://www.hypowerantenna.com/products/dipoles  Look at the 2B4080L

As others have noted, the major advantages are 1) predictable pattern 2)
fed with coax, so they can be choked to kill common mode feedline
current. Common mode feedline current makes a noisy antenna and puts RF
in the shack.

I've used the 160/80 M version of this antenna very successfully in
three locations, adding a 40M fan element to cover that band.

Barry's antennas are well designed, but their construction is a bit
light weight for high stress applications (like 150 ft up in tall trees
that sway in the wind). They're fine for lower stress installations. For
the antennas I've built based on his designs, I've bought the loading
coils and built the rest. His standard design was more than strong
enough for my Chicago installation at about 40 ft between fixed points
(not trees).

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Rick & antennas...

KEN-3
For limited space, there is nothing wrong with bending the ends back (or
down).  My novice antenna was an 80/40 fan dipole with the 80m legs bent
back about 135 degrees.    I feel that an antenna with full length
elements, even if the ends are bent back,  will perform better than one
that uses loading coils.   The reason I say this is that, when you have
a full half wave antenna, most of the radiation comes from the high
current center half of the antenna.  The ends do not radiate nearly as
much as the center portion.

Ken WA8JXM

On 12/10/15 12:38 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>
> I had a similar issue on my Chicago city lot. My solution was a loaded
> dipole for 80M that also resonated on 40M. You can buy antennas like
> this here.

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