Sherwood ranking

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Sherwood ranking

Buck - k4ia
Very well done indeed.  But, I am confused.  How is the ranking decided?
  Is it subjective or is there a formula?
--
Buck
k4ia
K3 # 101  KX3 #715
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Re: Sherwood ranking

Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Buck k4ia <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Very well done indeed.  But, I am confused.  How is the ranking decided?
>   Is it subjective or is there a formula?

As it says at the top, the table is sorted by "Dynamic Range Narrow Spaced".

73,

    ~iain / N6ML
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Re: Sherwood ranking

Barry N1EU
In reply to this post by Buck - k4ia
Buck k4ia wrote
How is the ranking decided?  Is it subjective or is there a formula?
It's ranked by Rob's narrow spaced dynamic range measurement.

Barry N1EU
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Re: Sherwood ranking

Gary Gregory
*Barry,

Perhaps more to the point..How does the measurement from Sherwood relate to
real time performance and usability for the operator?

In what way does an operator detect a difference so small between say the
top 3 on the list?

Is the price differential worth buying say position one in the rankings
over a transceiver ranked at 2 or 3?

Whilst the ranking may be valid in the single measurement as shown, in the
real world the vast majority are unlikely to ever detect such a small
difference if all the top 3 ranked units were sitting in the shack side by
side etc.

I guess it comes down to which one looks the prettiest....:-)

Oh yeah, beauty IS in the eye of the beholder right? (I say this everyday
when looking in the mirror in the hope I don't scare myself too much)

Gary
*
On 11 August 2012 07:53, Barry N1EU <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Buck k4ia wrote
> >
> > How is the ranking decided?  Is it subjective or is there a formula?
> >
>
> It's ranked by Rob's narrow spaced dynamic range measurement.
>
> Barry N1EU
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Sherwood-ranking-tp7560797p7560798.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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>



--
*Gary*
*Start the day off slow, then taper off.........*
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Re: Sherwood ranking

wayne burdick
Administrator
In reply to this post by Buck - k4ia
Rob sorts the table based on IMDDR3 at a 2-kHz spacing. This is the  
second-to-last column of the table.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Aug 10, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Buck k4ia wrote:

> Very well done indeed.  But, I am confused.  How is the ranking  
> decided?
>  Is it subjective or is there a formula?
> --
> Buck
> k4ia
> K3 # 101  KX3 #715
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Sherwood ranking

Don Wilhelm-4
In reply to this post by Gary Gregory
In real world operating, it is an indicator of how much a signal 1 kHz
away will interfere with the desired signal you are trying to copy.  The
greater the dynamic range, the stronger that undesired signal can be and
still allow you to copy.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/10/2012 6:06 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:

> *Barry,
>
> Perhaps more to the point..How does the measurement from Sherwood relate to
> real time performance and usability for the operator?
>
> In what way does an operator detect a difference so small between say the
> top 3 on the list?
>
> Is the price differential worth buying say position one in the rankings
> over a transceiver ranked at 2 or 3?
>
> Whilst the ranking may be valid in the single measurement as shown, in the
> real world the vast majority are unlikely to ever detect such a small
> difference if all the top 3 ranked units were sitting in the shack side by
> side etc.
>
> I guess it comes down to which one looks the prettiest....:-)
>
> Oh yeah, beauty IS in the eye of the beholder right? (I say this everyday
> when looking in the mirror in the hope I don't scare myself too much)
>
> Gary
> *
> On 11 August 2012 07:53, Barry N1EU <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Buck k4ia wrote
>>> How is the ranking decided?  Is it subjective or is there a formula?
>>>
>> It's ranked by Rob's narrow spaced dynamic range measurement.
>>
>> Barry N1EU
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Sherwood-ranking-tp7560797p7560798.html
>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>

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Re: Sherwood ranking

John K9UWA-2
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
I would love to see Rob do the K3 radio AGAIN with the latest goodies in it.
Notice that it shows as tested in 2008. I would suspect some things are
better than the 2008 setup.

John k9uwa


> Rob sorts the table based on IMDDR3 at a 2-kHz spacing. This is the  
> second-to-last column of the table.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF
Antique Radio Restorations
[hidden email]
Visit our Web Site at:
http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
4836 Ranch Road
Leo, IN 46765
USA
1-260-637-6426

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Re: Sherwood ranking

Phil Hystad-3
But, when you look at those top three entries you have to ask the question "Are these measurements effectively the same?"  I mean, is there any true discernible difference between those top radios.


On Aug 10, 2012, at 6:14 PM, John K9UWA <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I would love to see Rob do the K3 radio AGAIN with the latest goodies in it.
> Notice that it shows as tested in 2008. I would suspect some things are
> better than the 2008 setup.
>
> John k9uwa
>
>
>> Rob sorts the table based on IMDDR3 at a 2-kHz spacing. This is the  
>> second-to-last column of the table.
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
> John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF
> Antique Radio Restorations
> [hidden email]
> Visit our Web Site at:
> http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
> 4836 Ranch Road
> Leo, IN 46765
> USA
> 1-260-637-6426
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Sherwood ranking

Nate Bargmann
* On 2012 10 Aug 21:24 -0500, Phil Hystad wrote:
> But, when you look at those top three entries you have to ask the
> question "Are these measurements effectively the same?"  I mean, is
> there any true discernible difference between those top radios.

While Rob sorts his table by 'Dynamic Range Narrow Spaced (dB)' I look
at 'Filter Ultimate (dB)' as I detest filter blowby.  Filter blowby
renders all the other numbers moot, IMO.  I tend to think that for SSB
operations 'Dynamic Range Wide Spaced (dB)' is important, if I
understand it correctly, and '100kHz Blocking (dB)' seems to be a
measure of how well the receiver handles the band with a lot of strong
signals.

Taken as a whole of all the numbers in the table, it seems Elecraft has
the top two spots well in hand.  The difference being what you intend to
use your radio for.

73, de Nate, N0NB >>

--

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: Sherwood ranking

wayne burdick
Administrator
In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3
Phil Hystad wrote:

> But, when you look at those top three entries you have to ask the  
> question "Are these measurements effectively the same?"  I mean, is  
> there any true discernible difference between those top radios?

The short answer: In most operating situations they would all perform  
equally well.

The long answer: They're vastly different radios. The '5000 is  
definitely a nice rig, if a bit on the Statuesque end of the spectrum  
at 50+ pounds. Both the K3 and KX3 have much better blocking dynamic  
range than the '5000, yet are virtually equal to it in 2 kHz IMDDR3.  
Between the K3 and KX3, the K3 would be the better choice for serious  
contest work given its superhet architecture and narrow crystal  
filters. The K3 also has the highest-performance panadapter option of  
any radio.

The KX3 would be the better choice for hand-held operation, and it  
will run much longer from a 9-volt lithium ultralife battery.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


>
>
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 6:14 PM, John K9UWA  
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I would love to see Rob do the K3 radio AGAIN with the latest  
>> goodies in it.
>> Notice that it shows as tested in 2008. I would suspect some things  
>> are
>> better than the 2008 setup.
>>
>> John k9uwa
>>
>>
>>> Rob sorts the table based on IMDDR3 at a 2-kHz spacing. This is the
>>> second-to-last column of the table.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>> John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF
>> Antique Radio Restorations
>> [hidden email]
>> Visit our Web Site at:
>> http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
>> 4836 Ranch Road
>> Leo, IN 46765
>> USA
>> 1-260-637-6426
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Re: Sherwood ranking

Phil Hystad-3
Wayne,

Thanks for the summary.  Actually, the column that makes the most sense and the one that should rank first in ordering is the name of the company providing the rig and Elecraft comes first in that ordering because of course it starts with the letter E which is the most frequently occurring letter in general English prose.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Aug 10, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Phil Hystad wrote:
>
>> But, when you look at those top three entries you have to ask the question "Are these measurements effectively the same?"  I mean, is there any true discernible difference between those top radios?
>
> The short answer: In most operating situations they would all perform equally well.
>
> The long answer: They're vastly different radios. The '5000 is definitely a nice rig, if a bit on the Statuesque end of the spectrum at 50+ pounds. Both the K3 and KX3 have much better blocking dynamic range than the '5000, yet are virtually equal to it in 2 kHz IMDDR3. Between the K3 and KX3, the K3 would be the better choice for serious contest work given its superhet architecture and narrow crystal filters. The K3 also has the highest-performance panadapter option of any radio.
>
> The KX3 would be the better choice for hand-held operation, and it will run much longer from a 9-volt lithium ultralife battery.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 6:14 PM, John K9UWA <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I would love to see Rob do the K3 radio AGAIN with the latest goodies in it.
>>> Notice that it shows as tested in 2008. I would suspect some things are
>>> better than the 2008 setup.
>>>
>>> John k9uwa
>>>
>>>
>>>> Rob sorts the table based on IMDDR3 at a 2-kHz spacing. This is the
>>>> second-to-last column of the table.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Wayne
>>>> N6KR
>>> John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF
>>> Antique Radio Restorations
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Visit our Web Site at:
>>> http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
>>> 4836 Ranch Road
>>> Leo, IN 46765
>>> USA
>>> 1-260-637-6426
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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Re: Sherwood ranking

wayne burdick
Administrator
On behalf of the entire staff, I'll take this as a meta-compliment :)

Wayne

On Aug 10, 2012, at 9:19 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:

> Wayne,
>
> Thanks for the summary.  Actually, the column that makes the most  
> sense and the one that should rank first in ordering is the name of  
> the company providing the rig and Elecraft comes first in that  
> ordering because of course it starts with the letter E which is the  
> most frequently occurring letter in general English prose.
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
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Re: Sherwood ranking

N0AZZ
In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3
Yes a new test would be in order the FTDX-5000 has had many improvements
since that test date in 2010 a lot of the firmware seemed to still be beta
as new versions came as often as twice a week or more sometimes. Became a
real pain updating but they come less often now.

I find great pleasure in checking several of my radios with a push of a
button on my amp where 3 radios can be checked on same antenna and signal
within a split second. The 3 I have online right now are the
FTDX-5000MP/K3/100 loaded/K2/100 loaded. My findings have been quite
interesting to say the least for me anyway and enjoying every minute of it.

To answer one poster's question it is a real horse race between the 5000 and
the K3 with one never being a 100% winner but where the differences are is
quite noticeable. Plus I might add that I'm a relativity new K3/P3 owner and
not fully proficient with it yet by a far cry and have the 5000 since 3/10.
I'm sure others have did this also but later on I may post some of my
thoughts on these 2 rigs without any prejudice for either at this point.

My thanks to Wayne for his input on the Sherwood ranking of the KX3 in the
mix and how that was being misconstrued when comparing to the K3 and a few
other rigs. In fact I was uncertain on that point and was doing some
research when Wayne posted that for clarification. It really all is in the
numbers and how you get there for sure.

73,
Fred/N0AZZ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Phil Hystad
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:23 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood ranking

But, when you look at those top three entries you have to ask the question
"Are these measurements effectively the same?"  I mean, is there any true
discernible difference between those top radios.


On Aug 10, 2012, at 6:14 PM, John K9UWA <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I would love to see Rob do the K3 radio AGAIN with the latest goodies in
it.

> Notice that it shows as tested in 2008. I would suspect some things
> are better than the 2008 setup.
>
> John k9uwa
>
>
>> Rob sorts the table based on IMDDR3 at a 2-kHz spacing. This is the
>> second-to-last column of the table.
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
> John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF Antique Radio Restorations
> [hidden email] Visit our Web Site at:
> http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
> 4836 Ranch Road
> Leo, IN 46765
> USA
> 1-260-637-6426
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Re: Sherwood ranking

N0AZZ
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
Wayne

Very true and I can see and hear it in person in the radios.

A side note on the P3/SVGA I had used LP-PAN and SDR-IQ both with my 5000
and they work OK LP-Pan I got rid of early on to hard to keep running all
the time. SDR-IQ much better and some nice features but......the P3 is my
favorite of them all for sure you plug it in and it works from the very
first time out of the gate a fine product. I didn't care for it before the
SVGA adapter came out but just the P3 is fine for outdoor use alone. All I
can say is keep up the good work and may it be very rewarding for you your
company and employees "GOOD JOB"

Thx & 73,
Fred/N0AZZ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 10:55 PM
To: Phil Hystad
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood ranking

Phil Hystad wrote:

> But, when you look at those top three entries you have to ask the
> question "Are these measurements effectively the same?"  I mean, is
> there any true discernible difference between those top radios?

The short answer: In most operating situations they would all perform
equally well.

The long answer: They're vastly different radios. The '5000 is definitely a
nice rig, if a bit on the Statuesque end of the spectrum at 50+ pounds. Both
the K3 and KX3 have much better blocking dynamic range than the '5000, yet
are virtually equal to it in 2 kHz IMDDR3.  
Between the K3 and KX3, the K3 would be the better choice for serious
contest work given its superhet architecture and narrow crystal filters. The
K3 also has the highest-performance panadapter option of any radio.

The KX3 would be the better choice for hand-held operation, and it will run
much longer from a 9-volt lithium ultralife battery.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


>
>
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 6:14 PM, John K9UWA
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I would love to see Rob do the K3 radio AGAIN with the latest goodies
>> in it.
>> Notice that it shows as tested in 2008. I would suspect some things
>> are better than the 2008 setup.
>>
>> John k9uwa
>>
>>
>>> Rob sorts the table based on IMDDR3 at a 2-kHz spacing. This is the
>>> second-to-last column of the table.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>> John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF Antique Radio Restorations
>> [hidden email] Visit our Web Site at:
>> http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
>> 4836 Ranch Road
>> Leo, IN 46765
>> USA
>> 1-260-637-6426
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Re: Sherwood ranking

drewko
In reply to this post by Gary Gregory
I doubt if I would be able to appreciate the difference between the
numbers of the top three ranked, but I'm no expert.

The Sherwood numbers are not a comprehensive description of
"listenability". I am able to appreciate the recent improvements in K3
AGC and NR. But these improvements, it is said, would have no effect
on the Sherwood numbers.

73,
Drew
AF2Z


On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 08:06:07 +1000, Gary wrote:

>*Barry,
>
>Perhaps more to the point..How does the measurement from Sherwood relate to
>real time performance and usability for the operator?
>
>In what way does an operator detect a difference so small between say the
>top 3 on the list?
>
>Is the price differential worth buying say position one in the rankings
>over a transceiver ranked at 2 or 3?
>
>Whilst the ranking may be valid in the single measurement as shown, in the
>real world the vast majority are unlikely to ever detect such a small
>difference if all the top 3 ranked units were sitting in the shack side by
>side etc.
>
>I guess it comes down to which one looks the prettiest....:-)
>
>Oh yeah, beauty IS in the eye of the beholder right? (I say this everyday
>when looking in the mirror in the hope I don't scare myself too much)
>
>Gary
>*

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Re: Sherwood ranking

Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy-3
In reply to this post by Gary Gregory
Gary,

One answer to your first question is that the results of IMDDR3 tests at 2
kHz spacing, performed with a 500 Hz IF filter inline, do not themselves
tell you how a receiver will cope with two or more close spaced and strong
signals inside its 500 Hz passband.  In the case of a superhet, these tests
at 2 kHz spacing only provide a measure of the IMDDR3 of the front end and
usually the input part of the 500 Hz IF filter.  They do not expose any "IMD
weakness" which might exist in the complete IF filter, the IF or the backend
of a receiver.

73,

Geoff
LX2AO


On August 11, 2012 at 12:06 AM, Gary Gregory wrote:


> *Barry,
>
> Perhaps more to the point..How does the measurement from Sherwood relate
> to
> real time performance and usability for the operator?
>
> In what way does an operator detect a difference so small between say the
> top 3 on the list?
>
> Is the price differential worth buying say position one in the rankings
> over a transceiver ranked at 2 or 3?
>
> Whilst the ranking may be valid in the single measurement as shown, in the
> real world the vast majority are unlikely to ever detect such a small
> difference if all the top 3 ranked units were sitting in the shack side by
> side etc.
>
> I guess it comes down to which one looks the prettiest....:-)
>
> Oh yeah, beauty IS in the eye of the beholder right? (I say this everyday
> when looking in the mirror in the hope I don't scare myself too much)
>
> Gary

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KX3 operating time on 9V battery (was: Sherwood ranking)

Barry N1EU
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
wayne burdick wrote
The KX3 would be the better choice for hand-held operation, and it  
will run much longer from a 9-volt lithium ultralife battery.
Can anyone estimate approx operating time for KX3 on such a battery and approx cw power output?

Thanks & 73,
Barry N1EU
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Re: Sherwood ranking

Edward R Cole
In reply to this post by Buck - k4ia
First-off my apology this reply is so behind in time.  My main
computer was under re-build so was having to use web-based e-mail to
access my e-mail and the reflector would not recognise me as
registered for posting replies.

I think which parameter is most significant depends a lot on the use,
whether that be HF contest, DX, rag-chew, and what mode: CW, SSB, or
one of the digital modes.  Is this a strong-signal environ or super
weak-signal?

Across the board (Sherwood table) the KX3 is impressive (when on
takes into what challenges a direct-conversion receiver faces).  Also
the entry cost for a new radio is pretty great for being on top of the list!

For my favored modes which all involve weak-signal reception the -144
dBc/Hz LO noise is a big plus!  I do not encounter nearby large
signals so the other two parameters are less of an issue.

But I will use the KX3 in a wider range of ham use so the
strong-signal characteristics will be definitely nice.  As to the
individual selling his FT-817 (being made harder) ....why I sold mine
last winter ahead of the game.

Aside to Wayne:  Sherwood numbers great stuff to add to my product
review paper on using the KX3 as IF radio for mw.  The mw gang hold
great store by low-noise LO's.  Next they look at LO freq. stability
so a pending EXREF will be significant for purchase decisions made by mw hams.

I'm hoping we can see the KX3-2M before the presentation in San Jose
(MUD-2012) Biltmore Hotel, Oct. 19-20.  144-MHz is the most popular
IF for mw equipment.

73, Ed - KL7UW
"glad I only rebuild my computer every couple years!"

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