Text Decode Issues

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Text Decode Issues

HREFAB
I am noticing that my KX3 has a very hard time actually decoding CW that is sent/received. I have tried several thresholds, adjusted my key and tried alternate sending techniques (weighting, timing etc.). MY problem is mostly the KX3's inability to differentiate the letter P when sending. (as in my call sign KD2FIP). I can make out the calls of code received most of the time, and I know that not everyone sends "perfect" code, but even so, I get a lot of jumble even when listening to ARRL.

I know that I am sending the letter correctly, but the display will 99x out of 100 display it as 'EG" as in KD2FIEG. It's a minor point, but something that I'd like to sort out. any suggestions would be welcome.

73
Jim
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Re: Text Decode Issues

Nr4c
Practice, practice, practice!

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Apr 20, 2014, at 2:23 PM, HREFAB <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I am noticing that my KX3 has a very hard time actually decoding CW that is
> sent/received. I have tried several thresholds, adjusted my key and tried
> alternate sending techniques (weighting, timing etc.). MY problem is mostly
> the KX3's inability to differentiate the letter P when sending. (as in my
> call sign KD2FIP). I can make out the calls of code received most of the
> time, and I know that not everyone sends "perfect" code, but even so, I get
> a lot of jumble even when listening to ARRL.
>
> I know that I am sending the letter correctly, but the display will 99x out
> of 100 display it as 'EG" as in KD2FIEG. It's a minor point, but something
> that I'd like to sort out. any suggestions would be welcome.
>
> 73
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Text-Decode-Issues-tp7587553.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Text Decode Issues

HREFAB
Ordinarily, I'd agree, but I know for a fact that my sending is spot on. The problem lies in the decode being unable to differentiate the spacing of the 'dits and dahs' for the letter combination of P (reading it instead as  "EG". I think that the proiximity of the letter "I" to the "P" is throwing it off as a single "P" will 9 x out of 10 be read correctly. Using a Begali machine, my code decodes perfectly, spacing and weight.
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Re: Text Decode Issues

Millerhill
In reply to this post by HREFAB
I'll be honest with you, I've given up on the KX3 decode. It's ok, but not great. I have the same issue with "R"...almost always displays as "EN".


On Apr 20, 2014, at 2:23 PM, HREFAB wrote:

> I am noticing that my KX3 has a very hard time actually decoding CW that is
> sent/received. I have tried several thresholds, adjusted my key and tried
> alternate sending techniques (weighting, timing etc.). MY problem is mostly
> the KX3's inability to differentiate the letter P when sending. (as in my
> call sign KD2FIP). I can make out the calls of code received most of the
> time, and I know that not everyone sends "perfect" code, but even so, I get
> a lot of jumble even when listening to ARRL.
>
> I know that I am sending the letter correctly, but the display will 99x out
> of 100 display it as 'EG" as in KD2FIEG. It's a minor point, but something
> that I'd like to sort out. any suggestions would be welcome.
>
> 73
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Text-Decode-Issues-tp7587553.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Re: Text Decode Issues

HREFAB
I haven't yet given up, I think there is a timing issue that just has a hard time 'hearing' the proper spacing on certain letter combinations. Almost like there is a latency and the machine is still 'forming' the previous letter. Hard to explain, but I'm going to keep at it until I can figure out something. If this radio could decode as well as the Begali CW machine, it would be a PERFECT radio!
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Re: Text Decode Issues

Gary NL7Y
In reply to this post by HREFAB
Not sure if it's comparable to the KX3, but I find the current K3's decode to be relatively worthless compared with the original version I owned years ago. Something has changed and somewhere I read it was given it's own AGC or whatever for an improvement.

I can send and receive CW to my satisfaction, so for me it's just something I use as a background visual source for my P3/SVGA/monitor while I'm doing something else.

If I want to really decode some contest 30-40 CW I use the small portable audio-fed Microcraft Multi-mode gizmo I bought years ago. Works perfectly while the K3 fumbles with the same source. Only the loudest and clearest gets unscrambled.

73, Gary NL7Y
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Re: Text Decode Issues

Millerhill
Hi Gary,

Yes, and it's curious that there are clearly better decoders out there. I built an Open QRP rig last year and the decoder was phenomenal...much better than the KX3, so assuming this is a software issue, is this something that the Elecraft engineers are looking at?

73, Steve

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Roberts-W1SFR
Sudbury, VT
http://www.kx3helper.com
Fists, CW OPS, QRP ARCI, SKCC, NEQRP, NAQCC, FP, ARRL, Green Mountain Wireless Society
(802)779-7489 (cell)


On Apr 20, 2014, at 9:11 PM, Gary NL7Y wrote:

> Not sure if it's comparable to the KX3, but I find the current K3's decode to
> be relatively worthless compared with the original version I owned years
> ago. Something has changed and somewhere I read it was given it's own AGC or
> whatever for an improvement.
>
> I can send and receive CW to my satisfaction, so for me it's just something
> I use as a background visual source for my P3/SVGA/monitor while I'm doing
> something else.
>
> If I want to really decode some contest 30-40 CW I use the small portable
> audio-fed Microcraft Multi-mode gizmo I bought years ago. Works perfectly
> while the K3 fumbles with the same source. Only the loudest and clearest
> gets unscrambled.
>
> 73, Gary NL7Y
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Text-Decode-Issues-tp7587553p7587573.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Text Decode Issues

mcduffie
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 09:32:59 -0400, Stephen Roberts wrote:

> Yes, and it's curious that there are clearly better decoders out there.
> I built an Open QRP rig last year and the decoder was phenomenal...
> much better than the KX3, so assuming this is a software issue, is this
> something that the Elecraft engineers are looking at?

Dumb question time.  Why don't you just learn to operate CW the way most
people do?  CW is supposed to be a manual mode.  It is an ART.  Copying
CW is a part of the tradition of amateur radio.  If you have to have
perfect CW to be decoded, it's the same as or worse than RTTY.  Your
brain can decode CW with missing characters and elements quite nicely.

Use your head!

Gary
--
http://ag0n.net
3055: http://ag0n.net/irlp/3055
NodeOp Help Page: http://ag0n.net/irlp
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Re: Text Decode Issues

Phil Wheeler-2
In reply to this post by Millerhill
I've played with a few decoders, Steve -- more out
of interest than anything else. The one I've found
most promising is in the NUE_PSK modem. See
http://www.nue-psk.com/cw/index.html#Receive_ and
http://www.nue-psk.com/doc/CW%20Mode%20for%20the%20NUE-PSK%20Digital%20Modem.pdf 
But even there you have to make adjustments for
variations in character and word spacing.

Personally I'd hate to see Elecraft devote much
attention to optimizing CW decoding, which is a
pretty specialized field.

73, Phil w7ox

On 4/21/14, 6:32 AM, Stephen Roberts wrote:

> Hi Gary,
>
> Yes, and it's curious that there are clearly better decoders out there. I built an Open QRP rig last year and the decoder was phenomenal...much better than the KX3, so assuming this is a software issue, is this something that the Elecraft engineers are looking at?
>
> 73, Steve
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Steve Roberts-W1SFR
> Sudbury, VT
> http://www.kx3helper.com
> Fists, CW OPS, QRP ARCI, SKCC, NEQRP, NAQCC, FP, ARRL, Green Mountain Wireless Society
> (802)779-7489 (cell)
>
>
> On Apr 20, 2014, at 9:11 PM, Gary NL7Y wrote:
>
>> Not sure if it's comparable to the KX3, but I find the current K3's decode to
>> be relatively worthless compared with the original version I owned years
>> ago. Something has changed and somewhere I read it was given it's own AGC or
>> whatever for an improvement.
>>
>> I can send and receive CW to my satisfaction, so for me it's just something
>> I use as a background visual source for my P3/SVGA/monitor while I'm doing
>> something else.
>>
>> If I want to really decode some contest 30-40 CW I use the small portable
>> audio-fed Microcraft Multi-mode gizmo I bought years ago. Works perfectly
>> while the K3 fumbles with the same source. Only the loudest and clearest
>> gets unscrambled.
>>
>> 73, Gary NL7Y

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Re: Text Decode Issues

Phil Hystad-3
In reply to this post by mcduffie
Ditto!  Sort of...

I agree that CW is a manual, using ear and head tools, and not using an eye tools.  Otherwise, what is the difference between CW, RTTY, PSK, or whatever in terms of enjoyment (certainly there are differences in other physical aspects).

But, there are times when I hear a DX station that is racing along at 40 wpm and I just need a little help -- I mean, was that the letter L in his call sign or the letters AI -- often to these lesser skilled ears, it is hard to tell.  Indeed, as per this discussion, even the decode process can't discern accurately.

So, there are some situations where I will turn on CW decoding to pick up someone that is desirable yet not discernible.  Would I use decode in a rag chew -- No.

73, phil, K7PEH



On Apr 21, 2014, at 7:11 AM, AG0N-3055 <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 09:32:59 -0400, Stephen Roberts wrote:
>
>> Yes, and it's curious that there are clearly better decoders out there.
>> I built an Open QRP rig last year and the decoder was phenomenal...
>> much better than the KX3, so assuming this is a software issue, is this
>> something that the Elecraft engineers are looking at?
>
> Dumb question time.  Why don't you just learn to operate CW the way most
> people do?  CW is supposed to be a manual mode.  It is an ART.  Copying
> CW is a part of the tradition of amateur radio.  If you have to have
> perfect CW to be decoded, it's the same as or worse than RTTY.  Your
> brain can decode CW with missing characters and elements quite nicely.
>
> Use your head!
>
> Gary
> --
> http://ag0n.net
> 3055: http://ag0n.net/irlp/3055
> NodeOp Help Page: http://ag0n.net/irlp
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Re: Text Decode Issues

Millerhill
In reply to this post by mcduffie
Well Gary, that goes without saying, but the issue was a comparison between text decoders and I was simply stating the fact that the KX3 decoder isn't the brightest bulb in the chandelier IMHO.

I am a diehard student and lover of CW, and I have to admit when I'm in some QSO's where the other op is droning along parroting everything I sent, sometimes the mind wanders and I cheat a bit and see if I can catch what he/she is saying by glancing at the display. I know....I know....


Steve, W1SFR



On Apr 21, 2014, at 10:11 AM, AG0N-3055 wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 09:32:59 -0400, Stephen Roberts wrote:
>
>> Yes, and it's curious that there are clearly better decoders out there.
>> I built an Open QRP rig last year and the decoder was phenomenal...
>> much better than the KX3, so assuming this is a software issue, is this
>> something that the Elecraft engineers are looking at?
>
> Dumb question time.  Why don't you just learn to operate CW the way most
> people do?  CW is supposed to be a manual mode.  It is an ART.  Copying
> CW is a part of the tradition of amateur radio.  If you have to have
> perfect CW to be decoded, it's the same as or worse than RTTY.  Your
> brain can decode CW with missing characters and elements quite nicely.
>
> Use your head!
>
> Gary
> --
> http://ag0n.net
> 3055: http://ag0n.net/irlp/3055
> NodeOp Help Page: http://ag0n.net/irlp
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Re: Text Decode Issues

HREFAB
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by mcduffie
AG0N-3055 wrote
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 09:32:59 -0400, Stephen Roberts wrote:

>
Dumb question time.  Why don't you just learn to operate CW the way most
people do?  CW is supposed to be a manual mode.  It is an ART.  Copying
CW is a part of the tradition of amateur radio.  If you have to have
perfect CW to be decoded, it's the same as or worse than RTTY.  Your
brain can decode CW with missing characters and elements quite nicely.

Use your head!

Gary
--
THAT'S A pretty ridiculous statement Gary. We're talking about a FEATURE on the radio, NOT my ability or inability to copy or send. The Decode function is more than just "Tell me what he said". It is useful for picking up faint stations that might be missed, and to verify what my ears hear. Of course, I'm not as skilled an operator as you obviously are, but then again, I embrace technology rather than being afraid of it.

I'm not worried about MISSING characters, rather I am concerned that the characters that I send PROPERLY are being miss-sent because of a flaw in the software. Telling me to "Learn how to operate..." is akin to you telling me to "Buy a Stick" when I mention that my automatic transmission is having a problem.

I spent a not inconsiderable sum of money for this radio and have a reasonable expectation that all features work properly. And finally, how doers one determine what part of a Call Sign is missing?
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Re: Text Decode Issues

turnbull
Dear OMs and Yls,
    Calm down, no need to get angry.   The CW decode feature is a tool and
maybe it keeps some on the mode who would otherwise not try.   In time they
improve and even seasoned operators occasionally may find the decode feature
handy if not amazing.   You can be distracted and take a glance at the
screen to fill in the gap.    I am a 25 wpm rag chewer and find this feature
useful.   It is not perfect unless receiving good code.    Polar flutter,
poor spacing by the sender and noise can all cause problems but it amazes me
how well it does function.     It is also a useful reminder to keep your own
spacing as it should be.   The decoder is a useful and powerful tool but it
can not perform miracles.

      We are fortunate to keep everyone trying CW.   I note CW Ops do not
care how you work Morse as long as you work it.  In time people improve and
copy more by ear but the decoder helps to add some security for those
operators learning code.   This is a technological hobby let us not look
askance at technical helps.  

           73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of HREFAB
Sent: 21 April 2014 15:36
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Text Decode Issues

AG0N-3055 wrote

> On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 09:32:59 -0400, Stephen Roberts wrote:
>
>>
> Dumb question time.  Why don't you just learn to operate CW the way most
> people do?  CW is supposed to be a manual mode.  It is an ART.  Copying
> CW is a part of the tradition of amateur radio.  If you have to have
> perfect CW to be decoded, it's the same as or worse than RTTY.  Your
> brain can decode CW with missing characters and elements quite nicely.
>
> Use your head!
>
> Gary
> --

THAT'S A pretty ridiculous statement Gary. We're talking about a FEATURE on
the radio, NOT my ability or inability to copy or send. The Decode function
is more than just "Tell me what he said". It is useful for picking up faint
stations that might be missed, and to verify what my ears hear. Of course,
I'm not as skilled an operator as you obviously are, but then again, I
embrace technology rather than being afraid of it.

I'm not worried about MISSING characters, rather I am concerned that the
characters that I send PROPERLY are being miss-sent because of a flaw in the
software. Telling me to "Learn how to operate..." is akin to you telling me
to "Buy a Stick" when I mention that my automatic transmission is having a
problem.

I spent a not inconsiderable sum of money for this radio and have a
reasonable expectation that all features work properly.




--
View this message in context:
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Text-Decode-Issues-tp7587553p7587596.ht
ml
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Text Decode Issues

sussman
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.

I'm a relatively new ham still new to CW... can only decode about 12wpm.  I try not to look at the screen, but it's a nice safety net.  When I miss something critical, I can glance up and hopefully prevent a panic attack.  :-)

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Re: Text Decode Issues

Tim Herrick
In reply to this post by HREFAB
I'm sorry but I have not yet seen a CW decoder that can copy faint signals very well. Any noise will cause an erroneous character.

I think Gary's intent is don't be dependent on a CW decoder to copy for you. If you don't get that "L" the first time listen for the
next time. Personally I wonder how many of the bad spots that come out for DX stations are due to CW decoders rather than a
miscopied call sign. Then there are those lemmings that would rather fall off the cliff than copy the call themselves and continue
to spot the wrong call. How many of those count on the decoders to copy a station and since they are getting all kinds of junk just
echo what the saw on the cluster.

73,
Tim Herrick, KQ8M
[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of HREFAB
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 11:36 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Text Decode Issues

AG0N-3055 wrote

> On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 09:32:59 -0400, Stephen Roberts wrote:
>
>>
> Dumb question time.  Why don't you just learn to operate CW the way
> most people do?  CW is supposed to be a manual mode.  It is an ART.  
> Copying CW is a part of the tradition of amateur radio.  If you have
> to have perfect CW to be decoded, it's the same as or worse than RTTY.  
> Your brain can decode CW with missing characters and elements quite nicely.
>
> Use your head!
>
> Gary
> --

THAT'S A pretty ridiculous statement Gary. We're talking about a FEATURE on the radio, NOT my ability or inability to copy or send.
The Decode function is more than just "Tell me what he said". It is useful for picking up faint stations that might be missed, and
to verify what my ears hear. Of course, I'm not as skilled an operator as you obviously are, but then again, I embrace technology
rather than being afraid of it.

I'm not worried about MISSING characters, rather I am concerned that the characters that I send PROPERLY are being miss-sent because
of a flaw in the software. Telling me to "Learn how to operate..." is akin to you telling me to "Buy a Stick" when I mention that my
automatic transmission is having a problem.

I spent a not inconsiderable sum of money for this radio and have a reasonable expectation that all features work properly.




--
View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Text-Decode-Issues-tp7587553p7587596.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Text Decode Issues

Kevin Stover
In reply to this post by turnbull
Exactly.
No software yet produced is as good as the human brain when copying CW.
It's just a fact and expecting a radio, especially a radio with limited
firmware space, or piece of software to copy perfectly 100% of the time
is ridiculous.

On 4/21/2014 11:35 AM, Doug Turnbull wrote:

> Dear OMs and Yls,
>      Calm down, no need to get angry.   The CW decode feature is a tool and
> maybe it keeps some on the mode who would otherwise not try.   In time they
> improve and even seasoned operators occasionally may find the decode feature
> handy if not amazing.   You can be distracted and take a glance at the
> screen to fill in the gap.    I am a 25 wpm rag chewer and find this feature
> useful.   It is not perfect unless receiving good code.    Polar flutter,
> poor spacing by the sender and noise can all cause problems but it amazes me
> how well it does function.     It is also a useful reminder to keep your own
> spacing as it should be.   The decoder is a useful and powerful tool but it
> can not perform miracles.
>
>        We are fortunate to keep everyone trying CW.   I note CW Ops do not
> care how you work Morse as long as you work it.  In time people improve and
> copy more by ear but the decoder helps to add some security for those
> operators learning code.   This is a technological hobby let us not look
> askance at technical helps.
>
>             73 Doug EI2CN
>
>


--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441

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Re: Text Decode Issues

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Administrator
Folks - to keep list noise level under control for others, lets table the
pro/con discussion of people using CW text decoders.

Discussing how to adjust things to make CW decoding work best is OK.

73,

Eric
List Modulator
elecraft.com

On 4/21/2014 10:19 AM, Kevin Stover wrote:
> Exactly.
> No software yet produced is as good as the human brain when copying CW. It's
> just a fact and expecting a radio, especially a radio with limited firmware
> space, or piece of software to copy perfectly 100% of the time is ridiculous.

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Re: Text Decode Issues

HREFAB
Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote
Folks - to keep list noise level under control for others, lets table the
pro/con discussion of people using CW text decoders.

Discussing how to adjust things to make CW decoding work best is OK.

73,

Eric
List Modulator
elecraft.com
Which was the point of the original post. The subject had nothing to do with skill or ability and everything to do with hardware/software/Adjustment suggestions. If people think that decoding somehow dilutes the "purity" of CW then no one will ever move forward with technology. I know that the KX3 Excells in more areas than many radios far more expensive. I simply am looking for a way to maximize the features and functions contained in an already amazing radio.
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Re: Text Decode Issues

HREFAB
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by sussman
sussman wrote
I'm a relatively new ham still new to CW... can only decode about 12wpm.  I
try not to look at the screen, but it's a nice safety net.  When I miss
something critical, I can glance up and hopefully prevent a panic attack.
:-)
Ahh no need to panic. :) Most operators are very tolerant of mis-sends and flubbed characters. The ones who aren't, well, they fall into a different category. The important thing to remember is to send at a speed that is comfortable to you and you'll do fine. I have very nice contacts at 15wpm and sometimes jump up to 18 or 20. And I also enjoy contacts with folks who can only muster 5 or 6. The idea (in my mind) is to enjoy the activity and not worry too much about the CW perfectionists (who in reality are few and far between).

And in my previous posts, If I came off as annoyed, my apologies, but I was looking for an answer to a question, not advice as to how to operate CW.

Glad to have this list with like minded people. Let me state here, that the Elecraft Radios are in my opinion the top of the food chain when I compare them to other "Name Brands" that I own.
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Re: Text Decode Issues

Edward R Cole
In reply to this post by HREFAB
I would love to have a CW decoder do the work of copying CW for me, but...

Most CW that I work is very weak-signal.  If not at noise level is
actually below noise.  I have found no computer decoding sw that will
work into the noise.  Solution?  Its called JT65 (or one of its
variants).  JT65 will decode at 28 to 30-dB below noise level (SSB
bandwidth) with signals below about -20 dB not even strong enough to
hear with the human ear.

But it takes a computer as I know no one that can copy JT65* by
ear.  So......CW is for human copy and JT65 and other digital modes
are for computer copy.  *not referring to the shorthand codes which
are simple to see/hear.

Not a scientific comparison but it "seems" that the CW text decoder
in FLdigi works a bit better than the one in my K3.  But all require
a strong clear and well formed CW character to perform well; I think
this pretty much requires machine precision generation of CW. Almost
all CW ops have a "fist" which "colors" their sending. The human mind
can accommodate and even appreciate this; the machine - not!

My conclusion is that I must rely on myself for copying CW, and not a
machine.  But this is not to discourage those writing sw to get a
better CW decoder.

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
     "Kits made by KL7UW"
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