The case against touch screens

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Re: The case against touch screens

Wes Stewart-2
Speaking of F22s, I got to see a demo of one at this weekend's airshow at
DMAFB.  Also on hand were the USAF Thunderbirds.  I think there are a lot
politicians who should have to attend one of these to see how tax money should
be spent.

I understand the gloves comment.  It's a PITA to have to remove my gloves while
driving to simply change a radio station.

On 3/25/2019 11:50 AM, Mark Petiford via Elecraft wrote:

>   RE:  You assume that touch screens are inherently unreliable. Try to convince
> and F22 pilot of that, or a 777 gunnery crew.
>
> You assume that aircraft with flat panel displays utilize touch screens.  The military aircraft I have worked (Design Engineering) that have flat panel displays do NOT utilize touch displays.  The reasons are primarily touch resolution, and stability.
>
> Military pilots must be able to select functions while wearing heavy gloves, so they do not have great resolution as to where their touch will land.  They must also be able to reliably select functions during high G loading, both natural (turbulence) and induced (maneuvering).  Consequently, their flat displays usually consist of the main display, surrounded by hardware buttons (switches) which are separated with raised "dividers" or "walls" to separate the buttons. These buttons have small on-screen labels that change depending on which screen is being displayed.  We used to call these "soft buttons".
>
>
> I could go on, but will stop with that.  While I love the modern flat screen color displays (my uBITX will have one soon),  I must side with Wayne in that the functions that must be addressed when time is critical (can't remember how Wayne described it) should be hard buttons or "soft buttons" noted above).
>
> Mark,
> KE6BB
>

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Re: The case against touch screens

David Christ
In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm
What I was thinking.  But in addition let me add something else that would limit who could use it.  I have a progressively worsening case of tremor in my hands.  Grabbing a knob and turning it works fine but hitting a specific spot on a screen is a hit or miss operation.  The finer the detail the worse it is.  Add to that the problem I have with touch screens not recognizing my finger makes it worse.  

David K0LUM

> On Mar 25, 2019, at 11:02 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Touch screens do not provide support for blind amateur operators. Elecraft has always said they will provide support for blind operators.
> I just wonder how touchscreens fit into that commitment.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR

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Re: The case against touch screens

Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT-3
In reply to this post by alorona
The argument for is simple, and compelling for a company like Elecraft.

I know that my KX3 has functions that were not even dreamed of when the
front panel layout and silkscreen were finalized.

They've cleverly added these modes and functions by "overloading"
buttons -- push twice, push and hold, etc.

If the front panel is a touch-screen with the buttons drawn in, the
panel layout can be updated as part of a firmware upgrade.

For a manufacturer who releases a new model every few months and never
enhances the existing products, the argument is not as compelling.

-- Lynn

On 3/25/2019 11:51 AM, Al Lorona wrote:

> I don't think you guys understood me. I shouldn't have veiled my concern with a tongue-in-cheek post.
>
> So I will be direct. I was referring to the physiological event of touching a screen with a finger. It must be just me, because a large percentage of the time a touch screen does not respond to my finger. I have experienced this at ATMs, at the self checkout at Home Depot, at the airport, on my smart phone, etc. When you have to stand there, tapping over and over to get them to respond, touch screens just aren't as reliable, responsive, accurate, or fast as a control.
>
> Touch screens are beautiful, but they seem to ignore me. My fingers are low-capacitance, I guess! For that reason, I wouldn't tolerate one any more than I would tolerate a sticky volume control that took three or four twists before the volume turned up. None of us would put up with that.
>
> I'm a little surprised others haven't had the same experience as Thaddeus. Maybe they're just too shy to admit it.
>
> The next time you tap something on your phone, and you have to tap again to get it to work, I want you to think of me.
>
> Al  W6LX
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Re: The case against touch screens

Elecraft mailing list
In reply to this post by alorona
 RE:   "...a large percentage of the time a touch screen does not respond to my finger."

I thought it was just me!  I also have a problem with selecting the wrong thing, which is extremely time consuming and frustrating.  That is probably due to my essential tremors which have increased with my age, as expected.  That kept me from selling my KX3 and buying an IC-7300 (LOVE the screen!)...well, that and portability and Elecraft support and the KX3 receiver and...

Mark
KE6BB


    On Monday, March 25, 2019, 11:53:30 AM PDT, Al Lorona <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
 ...It must be just me, because a large percentage of the time a touch screen does not respond to my finger. I have experienced this at ATMs, at the self checkout at Home Depot, at the airport, on my smart phone, etc. When you have to stand there, tapping over and over to get them to respond, touch screens just aren't as reliable, responsive, accurate, or fast as a control.


...I'm a little surprised others haven't had the same experience as Thaddeus. Maybe they're just too shy to admit it.


The next time you tap something on your phone, and you have to tap again to get it to work, I want you to think of me.


Al  W6LX
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Re: The case against touch screens

Doug Person-5
In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm
Voice response. Voice modules have been available for various rigs for
sometime. They don't listen and do what you ask. But they will read the
S-meter, tell you what frequency/band you're one. It with be technically
easy to build a small option box that would handle a voice interface. If
a web server is built into a radio, a voice interface could be managed
as a web app. There are many possibilities.

Doug -- KJ0F

On 3/25/2019 11:02 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Touch screens do not provide support for blind amateur operators.
> Elecraft has always said they will provide support for blind operators.
> I just wonder how touchscreens fit into that commitment.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 3/25/2019 11:18 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
>> While those are certainly advantages, there are several
>> disadvantages. Number 1 on my personal hit parade: they aren’t
>> tactile. You have to look at them to operate them. Which means, for
>> you, another distraction. For me, it means extra support (think
>> VoiceOver on iOS, Talkback on Android, VoiceView on the Amazon Fire
>> things). So far, none of the ham radio manufacturers has implemented
>> anything like that, and so touch screen interfaces on a lot of stuff
>> are out of my reach, as it were. Of course, knobs and switches and
>> buttons have the advantage of being able to be manipulated without
>> having to see where they are.
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--
73 de Doug -- KJ0F

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Re: The case against touch screens

W2xj
In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm
With proper forethought, they can. Proper location of ‘buttons’ on the screen and an overlay template could provide enough tactual feedback.  

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 25, 2019, at 12:02 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Touch screens do not provide support for blind amateur operators. Elecraft has always said they will provide support for blind operators.
> I just wonder how touchscreens fit into that commitment.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>> On 3/25/2019 11:18 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
>> While those are certainly advantages, there are several disadvantages. Number 1 on my personal hit parade: they aren’t tactile. You have to look at them to operate them. Which means, for you, another distraction. For me, it means extra support (think VoiceOver on iOS, Talkback on Android, VoiceView on the Amazon Fire things). So far, none of the ham radio manufacturers has implemented anything like that, and so touch screen interfaces on a lot of stuff are out of my reach, as it were. Of course, knobs and switches and buttons have the advantage of being able to be manipulated without having to see where they are.
> ______________________________________________________________
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The case against touch screens

Edward A. Dauer
In reply to this post by alorona
 Me too.  I never thought of it as low capacitance fingers, but I avoid gas stations whose pumps I know require touch entries for zip codes, in contrast to those with a key pad.

As for aircraft, I have no experience in the military but long experience in GA proves right what Wayne said in another post -- if it's really important, it has to feel right.  There's a reason why the gear lever in GA craft is shaped like a wheel, the flap actuation switch feels like a flap, the power lever feels like a throttle, and to turn left you either push the stick left or turn the heading bug left.

And finally, as the tremors come with age, hitting any but the larger touch-screen buttons requires attention and is increasingly slow.

Soft keys afford the flexibility without some of the problems.


Ted, KN1CBR

 


-----------------------------
   
    Message: 11
    Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 18:51:40 +0000 (UTC)
    From: Al Lorona <[hidden email]>
    To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
    Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The case against touch screens
    Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
   
    I don't think you guys understood me. I shouldn't have veiled my concern with a tongue-in-cheek post.
   
    So I will be direct. I was referring to the physiological event of touching a screen with a finger. It must be just me, because a large percentage of the time a touch screen does not respond to my finger. I have experienced this at ATMs, at the self checkout at Home Depot, at the airport, on my smart phone, etc. When you have to stand there, tapping over and over to get them to respond, touch screens just aren't as reliable, responsive, accurate, or fast as a control.
   
    Touch screens are beautiful, but they seem to ignore me. My fingers are low-capacitance, I guess! For that reason, I wouldn't tolerate one any more than I would tolerate a sticky volume control that took three or four twists before the volume turned up. None of us would put up with that.
   
    I'm a little surprised others haven't had the same experience as Thaddeus. Maybe they're just too shy to admit it.
   
    The next time you tap something on your phone, and you have to tap again to get it to work, I want you to think of me.
   
    Al? W6LX
   
   
   

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Re: The case against touch screens

Elecraft mailing list
In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm
Don,

I have a blind ham friend and all his touch screens talk back to him when he touches something..... he can use his iPad, iPod and iPhone faster than I can.  It’s in the programming as it is a special program he has for each.  Another miracle for our blind brothers.  And, that is why he bought Icom gear.  He said they were the only company to offer plug in “talker” boards for their xcvr.  Still using his 756 Pro, 500 w Icom amp and LDG talking SWR meter.

Dave K8WPE

David J. Wilcox K8WPE’s iPad

> On Mar 25, 2019, at 12:02 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Touch screens do not provide support for blind amateur operators. Elecraft has always said they will provide support for blind operators.
> I just wonder how touchscreens fit into that commitment.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>> On 3/25/2019 11:18 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
>> While those are certainly advantages, there are several disadvantages. Number 1 on my personal hit parade: they aren’t tactile. You have to look at them to operate them. Which means, for you, another distraction. For me, it means extra support (think VoiceOver on iOS, Talkback on Android, VoiceView on the Amazon Fire things). So far, none of the ham radio manufacturers has implemented anything like that, and so touch screen interfaces on a lot of stuff are out of my reach, as it were. Of course, knobs and switches and buttons have the advantage of being able to be manipulated without having to see where they are.
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: The case against touch screens

Deni F5VJC
If the latest touch screens are anything like my "Smartphone" you can keep
them!
Either they do not respond instantly or the processor is " Busy" doing
something else. This to me extremely irritating and frustrating.
How do the plethora of 7300 users find their screens work for them?

73 F5VJC

On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 at 09:51, David Wilcox via Elecraft <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Don,
>
> I have a blind ham friend and all his touch screens talk back to him when
> he touches something..... he can use his iPad, iPod and iPhone faster than
> I can.  It’s in the programming as it is a special program he has for
> each.  Another miracle for our blind brothers.  And, that is why he bought
> Icom gear.  He said they were the only company to offer plug in “talker”
> boards for their xcvr.  Still using his 756 Pro, 500 w Icom amp and LDG
> talking SWR meter.
>
> Dave K8WPE
>
> David J. Wilcox K8WPE’s iPad
>
> > On Mar 25, 2019, at 12:02 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Touch screens do not provide support for blind amateur operators.
> Elecraft has always said they will provide support for blind operators.
> > I just wonder how touchscreens fit into that commitment.
> >
> > 73,
> > Don W3FPR
> >
> >> On 3/25/2019 11:18 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
> >> While those are certainly advantages, there are several disadvantages.
> Number 1 on my personal hit parade: they aren’t tactile. You have to look
> at them to operate them. Which means, for you, another distraction. For me,
> it means extra support (think VoiceOver on iOS, Talkback on Android,
> VoiceView on the Amazon Fire things). So far, none of the ham radio
> manufacturers has implemented anything like that, and so touch screen
> interfaces on a lot of stuff are out of my reach, as it were. Of course,
> knobs and switches and buttons have the advantage of being able to be
> manipulated without having to see where they are.
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: The case against touch screens

Peter Hall
Folks,

I'm not an Elecraft transceiver owner and, with the present alternative radio offerings and the current state of the art, I won't be buying a K3 of any flavour.  However, I do own a KPA1500 which is nicely designed and built, and performs to expectations.  Those expectations are modest in IMD terms when compared with good tube amplifiers but far from the worst of the solid state offerings.  An Elecraft K4 with a well-implemented pre-distortion system would likely be a deal maker for me; I'd feel quite positive about finally having a contemporary system matching my classic Collins station in cleanliness.

Personally, I'm no great fan of touch screens having used them a lot in general aviation and with other amateur radios, including the IC7300 mentioned by the previous poster.  I just find the ergonomics fiddly and I'm OCD enough to always like my screens sparkling!  It's a personal choice, of course.

I also agree that a wideband baseband output (e.g I/Q) to ancillary devices and computers hosting a variety of open-source and propriety applications is a must-have.

73, Peter (VK6HP).


Sent from my iPad

> On 26 Mar 2019, at 8:09 pm, F5vjc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If the latest touch screens are anything like my "Smartphone" you can keep
> them!
> Either they do not respond instantly or the processor is " Busy" doing
> something else. This to me extremely irritating and frustrating.
> How do the plethora of 7300 users find their screens work for them?
>
> 73 F5VJC
>
> On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 at 09:51, David Wilcox via Elecraft <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Don,
>>
>> I have a blind ham friend and all his touch screens talk back to him when
>> he touches something..... he can use his iPad, iPod and iPhone faster than
>> I can.  It’s in the programming as it is a special program he has for
>> each.  Another miracle for our blind brothers.  And, that is why he bought
>> Icom gear.  He said they were the only company to offer plug in “talker”
>> boards for their xcvr.  Still using his 756 Pro, 500 w Icom amp and LDG
>> talking SWR meter.
>>
>> Dave K8WPE
>>
>> David J. Wilcox K8WPE’s iPad
>>
>>> On Mar 25, 2019, at 12:02 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Touch screens do not provide support for blind amateur operators.
>> Elecraft has always said they will provide support for blind operators.
>>> I just wonder how touchscreens fit into that commitment.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>>>> On 3/25/2019 11:18 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
>>>> While those are certainly advantages, there are several disadvantages.
>> Number 1 on my personal hit parade: they aren’t tactile. You have to look
>> at them to operate them. Which means, for you, another distraction. For me,
>> it means extra support (think VoiceOver on iOS, Talkback on Android,
>> VoiceView on the Amazon Fire things). So far, none of the ham radio
>> manufacturers has implemented anything like that, and so touch screen
>> interfaces on a lot of stuff are out of my reach, as it were. Of course,
>> knobs and switches and buttons have the advantage of being able to be
>> manipulated without having to see where they are.
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
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Re: The case against touch screens

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
Administrator
In reply to this post by Deni F5VJC
Folks - we closed this thread yesterday.  In the interest of relieving reader email overload from the large number of email postings, let's let it rest for now.

73,
Eric
Mooderator
elecraft.com
_..._


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Re: The case against touch screens

Buddy Brannan
In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
David, that’s all true, but there’s one little problem. All of those touch screens are attached to Android or iOS devices. Unless Elecraft plans on embedding a full Android or Apple OS in the mythical K4, writing a similar screen reader will not be a small undertaking.

> On Mar 26, 2019, at 4:50 AM, David Wilcox via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Don,
>
> I have a blind ham friend and all his touch screens talk back to him when he touches something..... he can use his iPad, iPod and iPhone faster than I can.  It’s in the programming as it is a special program he has for each.  Another miracle for our blind brothers.  And, that is why he bought Icom gear.  He said they were the only company to offer plug in “talker” boards for their xcvr.  Still using his 756 Pro, 500 w Icom amp and LDG talking SWR meter.
>
> Dave K8WPE
>
> David J. Wilcox K8WPE’s iPad
>
>> On Mar 25, 2019, at 12:02 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Touch screens do not provide support for blind amateur operators. Elecraft has always said they will provide support for blind operators.
>> I just wonder how touchscreens fit into that commitment.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>>> On 3/25/2019 11:18 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
>>> While those are certainly advantages, there are several disadvantages. Number 1 on my personal hit parade: they aren’t tactile. You have to look at them to operate them. Which means, for you, another distraction. For me, it means extra support (think VoiceOver on iOS, Talkback on Android, VoiceView on the Amazon Fire things). So far, none of the ham radio manufacturers has implemented anything like that, and so touch screen interfaces on a lot of stuff are out of my reach, as it were. Of course, knobs and switches and buttons have the advantage of being able to be manipulated without having to see where they are.
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Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Email: [hidden email]
Mobile: (814) 431-0962



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