WSPR & Diversity RX

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WSPR & Diversity RX

MaverickNH
I'm wondering about my K3S in Diversity RX on Digital modes, such as WSPR. I have a G5RV and a 43ft Vertical, so was thinking I might find better overall RX with Diversity enabled. Thoughts on this?

Bret/N4SRN
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Re: WSPR & Diversity RX

Don Wilhelm
Bret,

Since the computer soundcard is working only with one channel, diversity
mode will not help - unless you can create an 'add-on' to interpret both
channels and decide which one has better reception.

When using Diversity Mode, you listen with both ears to the left and
right channels and your brain figures out which is the better side to
listen to - one channel from the main RX and the other from the subRX.
With digital modes, the soundcard is listening only to the left channel
- main RX.

Yes, you have antennas that will do diversity for you, but that will
only be useful in voice modes and CW because the human brain will
automatically decipher the best signal from the two channels - you
listen to diversity with one channel in each ear.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/30/2016 5:36 PM, MaverickNH wrote:
> I'm wondering about my K3S in Diversity RX on Digital modes, such as WSPR. I
> have a G5RV and a 43ft Vertical, so was thinking I might find better overall
> RX with Diversity enabled. Thoughts on this?
>

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Re: WSPR & Diversity RX

MaverickNH
Hi Don, I thought that might be the case. Might there be a way to run from stereo headphone output to a mixed mono signal and feed the soundcard's left channel? The WSJT-X/WSPR decoder is pretty good, so I thought any very, very weak wavering signal that was received deferentially L/R on each antenna might combine to be decoded better.

BRET/N4SRN
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Re: WSPR & Diversity RX

Brendon Whateley
Hi.

I don't think you can simply combine the two outputs. Any phase differences
in the signals coming out of the two receivers will result in added
canceling and/or adding of the signals. I can see two ways to go:

   1. Two sound cards and some software that either understands the
   diversity. Or some software that will feed your existing software the
   stronger signal.
   2. Some hardware that measures the signal strength on the two outputs
   and swaps which one is then fed to the computer depending on the signal
   level.

Software that would take both signals would give the most options for
extracting the last dB out of the signals. But an external "strength
selector" would probably be a pretty simple project for people with
soldering skills!

Good luck,
- Brendon
KK6AYI.

On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 8:47 AM, MaverickNH <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Don, I thought that might be the case. Might there be a way to run from
> stereo headphone output to a mixed mono signal and feed the soundcard's
> left
> channel? The WSJT-X/WSPR decoder is pretty good, so I thought any very,
> very
> weak wavering signal that was received deferentially L/R on each antenna
> might combine to be decoded better.
>
> BRET/N4SRN
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.
> nabble.com/WSPR-Diversity-RX-tp7622983p7623005.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Re: WSPR & Diversity RX

Edward R Cole
In reply to this post by MaverickNH
WSPR is designed to take only one audio input (one Rx) so it will not
do diversity receive.
The K3 and K3s only output a single audio stream (main Rx or sub Rx
when properly set up, but not both).

So what Don say is correct for the stock radio with sub-Rx, but...

Full diversity receive is possible (using dual receive sw:  Linrad or
MAP65).  But you have to add more equipment to enable this.  I did
that for dual-Rx on 2m-eme by adding a breakout of the 1st IF for the
sub-Rx and connecting the 1st IF of both the main and sub Rx to two
LP-Pan units (working as SDR) who I slaved to one LO so the two
signals would be phase-locked and the two IQ baseband audio would
stay in phase.  Those four lines go to a two channel stereo soundcard
(M-audio Delta44) which produces the two IQ data streams to a
computer for each receiver in the K3.

But you have to have a SDR sw which accepts dual-RX input to obtain a
diversity result.  At present only Linrad or MAP65 do that.  WSPR is
not included as option under MAP65 and I do not think Linrad can
support it, either (less certain about Linrad).

So there is a diversity solution to provide two signal streams but no
dual receive vers of WSPR.  I wonder if one might be able to run two
essense WSPR on one computer with each taking input from a
receiver?  You still would have to manually compare WSPR output from
each to determine which has the better signal.  A good computer geek
might be able to write an interface to both WSPR to compare each and
outputting the best result.

Here is how I set up my dual-Rx 2m-eme adaptive receiving
system.  With it I receive 2m in both Vertical polarity and
Horizontal polarity with MAP65 providing the best signal reception
(plus providing the actual signal polarity angle):
http://www.kl7uw.com/LINRAD.htm

So not exactly correct that diversity reception of digital modes is
not possible; it is for JT65 with the addition of the necessary equipment.

73, Ed - KL7UW


---------------------------------
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
To: MaverickNH <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] WSPR & Diversity RX
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

Bret,

Since the computer soundcard is working only with one channel, diversity
mode will not help - unless you can create an 'add-on' to interpret both
channels and decide which one has better reception.

When using Diversity Mode, you listen with both ears to the left and
right channels and your brain figures out which is the better side to
listen to - one channel from the main RX and the other from the subRX.
With digital modes, the soundcard is listening only to the left channel
- main RX.

Yes, you have antennas that will do diversity for you, but that will
only be useful in voice modes and CW because the human brain will
automatically decipher the best signal from the two channels - you
listen to diversity with one channel in each ear.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/30/2016 5:36 PM, MaverickNH wrote:
 > I'm wondering about my K3S in Diversity RX on Digital modes, such as WSPR. I
 > have a G5RV and a 43ft Vertical, so was thinking I might find better overall
 > RX with Diversity enabled. Thoughts on this?
 >


73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
     "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
     [hidden email]

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Re: WSPR & Diversity RX

Edward R Cole
In reply to this post by MaverickNH
Just working my way thru the digest copy so had not read this before
my first reply.

Hmm, take each audio stream from the stero headphone.  You would need
two soundcards or a four channel card like the Delta44 because you
need two data streams to produce diversity reception.  So that does
not solve the issue that WSPR does not provide for dual channel
input.  You might try running two instances of WSPR's on a computer
to handle each diversity channel but that still leaves you with two
displays which you would have to manually inspect for best signal.

MAP65 does this for two JT65 inputs but does not support WSPR.

Solution is for someone to write a dual-Rx version of WSPR for
diversity reception.  My guess is Joe Taylor is fully engaged in
other sw projects (K1JT author of WSJT, WSPR, etc.).

73, Ed - KL7UW
-----------
From: MaverickNH <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] WSPR & Diversity RX
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi Don, I thought that might be the case. Might there be a way to run from
stereo headphone output to a mixed mono signal and feed the soundcard's left
channel? The WSJT-X/WSPR decoder is pretty good, so I thought any very, very
weak wavering signal that was received deferentially L/R on each antenna
might combine to be decoded better.

BRET/N4SRN



73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
     "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
     [hidden email]

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Re: WSPR & Diversity RX

Nr4c
In reply to this post by MaverickNH
Don't think it's possible in the K3. External yes but that is different issue.

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Oct 1, 2016, at 11:47 AM, MaverickNH <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Don, I thought that might be the case. Might there be a way to run from
> stereo headphone output to a mixed mono signal and feed the soundcard's left
> channel? The WSJT-X/WSPR decoder is pretty good, so I thought any very, very
> weak wavering signal that was received deferentially L/R on each antenna
> might combine to be decoded better.
>
> BRET/N4SRN
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/WSPR-Diversity-RX-tp7622983p7623005.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Fwd: WSPR & Diversity RX

Guy Olinger K2AV
In reply to this post by MaverickNH
True diversity in digital modes requires TWO decoders running plus a
secondary comparator to somehow decide between the two decoded streams.

If you simply combine two audio streams there can be phase cancellation,
noise on one channel ruining both, and other issues.

In contrast it's simply marvelous what our brains can do when left ear is
listening to main RX and right ear is listening to sub RX locked to main RX
frequency and RF/AF gains and AGC are set to create a "sound stage".

Signals come from a point on the sound stage and noise is spread around.
Signals in a pileup can spread around the stage. And since it has the
normal "spatial spread" that we hear in normal life it's easier to listen
to, less tiring.

These are significant advantages that only apply in part to digital mode
where the specific and nasty programming has actually been done. Check your
third party digital decoding program's user's manual but don't hold your
breath.

Would be great if someone actually took that on.

73, Guy K2AV


On Saturday, October 1, 2016, MaverickNH <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Don, I thought that might be the case. Might there be a way to run from
> stereo headphone output to a mixed mono signal and feed the soundcard's
> left
> channel? The WSJT-X/WSPR decoder is pretty good, so I thought any very,
> very
> weak wavering signal that was received deferentially L/R on each antenna
> might combine to be decoded better.
>
> BRET/N4SRN
>
>
______________________________________________________________
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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